[cncf-toc] New version of Cloud Native Landscape

Camille Fournier skamille at gmail.com
Wed Sep 13 11:38:35 UTC 2017


Fwiw I actually find the product examples useful for being specific about
the various boxes. I think it's a hard balance to strike : giving useful
concrete examples without trying to be complete will violate our "no
kingmaking" rule, but with no examples it's too vague.

On Sep 12, 2017 11:36 PM, "Dan Kohn via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io>
wrote:

> The article is: https://diginomica.com/2017/09/11/docker-loses-first-mov
> er-advantage-kubernetes/
>
> I'm certainly aware of the complexity argument. But when weighed against
> the ability to shape the discussion around the projects and products in the
> cloud native ecosystem, I strongly believe that the positives outweigh the
> negatives.
>
> --
> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <https://cncf.io/>
> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Brian Grant <briangrant at google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Quote from an unnamed article I just saw:
>>
>> one look at the Cloud Native Landscape Project’s product taxonomy
>> <https://github.com/cncf/landscape> shows a mishmash of commercial
>> products and open source projects that are sure to strike terror in any IT
>> systems designer and cloud developer trying to assemble the tools necessary
>> to build and deploy cloud native applications
>>
>> I don't think that's the message we want to send.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Dan Kohn via cncf-toc <
>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>
>>> The interactive version we're building will support filtering by open
>>> source or not, which will provide that functionality. On the 2-D version, I
>>> think there's value in seeing that there are open source and proprietary
>>> offerings in most categories.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
>>> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <https://cncf.io/>
>>> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Duncan Johnston Watt via cncf-toc <
>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would it be heretical to remove products altogether and just focus on
>>>> projects? Or have a separate products landscape using the same rules.
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Duncan
>>>>
>>>> On 12 September 2017 at 19:19, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <
>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think that approach is the only reasonable one
>>>>>
>>>>> (that doesn't require the voting TOC members to build the landscape)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Stephen Watt via cncf-toc <
>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Per the last TOC meeting, we're building out the storage piece of
>>>>>> this landscape in the Storage WG. The one dilemma I've been noodling on is
>>>>>> how to manage the fact that there is an incentive for every Product Manager
>>>>>> from every Storage Company to make a case to have their products listed in
>>>>>> every category, whether they really fit the category or not. I think this
>>>>>> is kind of a shared issue across the entire landscape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One idea might be to increase the level of effort to petition for
>>>>>> inclusion. One approach might be that workgroups spend some time
>>>>>> articulating the properties for each category (which establishes and
>>>>>> clearly communicates what the bar is for inclusion) and once that is
>>>>>> completed, open source projects and commercial solutions would then be
>>>>>> required to get a slot on the relevant WG calendar to demo how their
>>>>>> product meets the requirements for the category. This will ensure that
>>>>>> anyone requesting to be added to a category in the landscape has some skin
>>>>>> in the game, which should reduce the amount of time we all spend dealing
>>>>>> with spurious requests for addition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Steve Watt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Dan Kohn via cncf-toc <
>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chip, I've heard this criticism, which is why we added this
>>>>>>> explanation at the bottom:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This landscape is intended as a map through the previously uncharted
>>>>>>>> terrain of cloud native technologies. There are many routes to deploying a
>>>>>>>> cloud native application, with CNCF Projects representing a particularly
>>>>>>>> well-traveled path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's certainly possible that developers or end users in
>>>>>>> investigating cloud native could look at the diagram, see that there are
>>>>>>> 300 options, and decide to just avoid the space entirely and stick with
>>>>>>> VMs. However, I do not think that is likely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Instead, I believe that it is effectively sending the message that
>>>>>>> using CNCF projects is not the only path to cloud native, but it is a good
>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
>>>>>>> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <
>>>>>>> https://cncf.io/>
>>>>>>> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Chip Childers <
>>>>>>> cchilders at cloudfoundry.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fully respecting all of the work that went into this diagram, from
>>>>>>>> the taxonomy discussions, to the categorization efforts and the design
>>>>>>>> work, I have a question as a list lurker:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What was / is the intent of the diagram, and who is the intended
>>>>>>>> "user"? Some feedback I've been hearing from end users / customers is that
>>>>>>>> it's perhaps even more confusing than not having it. It's certainly good to
>>>>>>>> expose the choices that individuals and organization can make, but it's
>>>>>>>> overwhelming to those I've spoken with. It pretty directly exposes them to
>>>>>>>> the paradox of choice that they face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If end users / customers are not the intended audience, that would
>>>>>>>> be good to make more clear. If they are, you might want to solicit some
>>>>>>>> feedback from people outside the "bubble" to get their take.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway... hope that was useful feedback... back to lurking for me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -chip
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 9:43 AM Dan Kohn via cncf-toc <
>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have an interactive version under development that will allow
>>>>>>>>> better zooming and filtering, as well as include dynamic info like GitHub
>>>>>>>>> stars and funding from Crunchbase.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
>>>>>>>>> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <
>>>>>>>>> https://cncf.io/>
>>>>>>>>> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Brian Grant <
>>>>>>>>> briangrant at google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's a symptom that this is becoming too much of an eye chart
>>>>>>>>>> to be useful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest having one diagram that shows the areas and current
>>>>>>>>>> CNCF projects, and one diagram per area/layer/column with other projects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Dan Kohn via cncf-toc <
>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I made the change at the last minute to deal with a spacing
>>>>>>>>>>> issue. I will revert it in the next version and restore CI/CD to the top
>>>>>>>>>>> layer. Apologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <
>>>>>>>>>>> https://cncf.io/>
>>>>>>>>>>> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Alexis Richardson <
>>>>>>>>>>> alexis at weave.works> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The TOC will have to fix this, by going back to the 0.92
>>>>>>>>>>>> structure, which was correct.  And rebuilding from there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 03:06 Alexis Richardson <alexis at weave.works>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's very disappointing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 03:05 Camille Fournier <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> skamille at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It looks like it changed pretty significantly between 0.9.5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 0.9.6.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:04 PM, Alexis Richardson <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alexis at weave.works> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Woah.  How did CICD get moved?  Wtf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Landscape 0.92 is authoritative. I'm afraid this new thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan, Chris, any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017, 02:13 Camille Fournier via cncf-toc <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can someone point me to the doc or remind me why we decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to put "CI/CD" into the "provisioning" layer? It's a bit of an odd duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there so we must've had a good reason for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Dan Kohn via cncf-toc <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You may be interested in the new version of the CNCF Cloud
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Native Landscape. As always, if you see something wrong, please open at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue at https://github.com/cncf/landscape:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: CloudNativeLandscape_v0.9.6.jpg]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan Kohn <mailto:dan at linuxfoundation.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://cncf.io/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tel:+1-415-233-1000 <(415)%20233-1000>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc mailing list
>>>>>>>>> cncf-toc at lists.cncf.io
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Chip Childers
>>>>>>>> CTO, Cloud Foundry Foundation
>>>>>>>> 1.267.250.0815 <(267)%20250-0815>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> cncf-toc mailing list
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>>>>>>> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Duncan Johnston-Watt
>>>>
>>>> Founder & Chief Executive Officer
>>>>
>>>> Phone: +44 777 190 2653 <+44%207771%20902653> | Skype:
>>>> duncan_johnstonwatt
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>
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