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Davanum Srinivas
Hi Folks,
There was a query from one of the projects about Pseudonyms for DCO and CLA. The CNCF staff has clarified the current policy:
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This isn't so much a question, as it is a request for the CNCF/TOC to review and possibly reverse this policy. While I and many others choose to use their legal name when contributing to projects, there are many reasons why someone might choose to use a pseudonym while contributing. Examples of some of those reasons and the harm that a "real names" policy can create are discussed in the EFF's open letter to Facebook, when Facebook introduced their real name policy in 2015 [1].
Pseudonyms are also used regularly when publishing copyrighted works. When used in the book publishing industry, they are commonly known as "pen names". The U.S. Copyright Office [2] (where the CNCF is based) and the Canadian Intellectual Property Office [3] (where I am personally based) both affirm that use of a pseudonym is permitted.
I'm sure there are others who have more expertise in the subject who could provide more reasons and context, but I personally feel like this is an unnecessary barrier to contribution and may exclude talented contributors from our projects.
Cheers,
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 3:04 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Hi Folks,
There was a query from one of the projects about Pseudonyms for DCO and CLA. The CNCF staff has clarified the current policy:
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Frederick Kautz
This policy is going to exclude a lot of people who are at risk from harassment. A significant number of people use pseudonyms today. We should consider revising this policy. Perhaps there is a path where we can allow people to register their pseudonym to help balance privacy and legal protection of the projects.
On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Christoph Blecker < cblecker@...> wrote: This isn't so much a question, as it is a request for the CNCF/TOC to review and possibly reverse this policy. While I and many others choose to use their legal name when contributing to projects, there are many reasons why someone might choose to use a pseudonym while contributing. Examples of some of those reasons and the harm that a "real names" policy can create are discussed in the EFF's open letter to Facebook, when Facebook introduced their real name policy in 2015 [1].
Pseudonyms are also used regularly when publishing copyrighted works. When used in the book publishing industry, they are commonly known as "pen names". The U.S. Copyright Office [2] (where the CNCF is based) and the Canadian Intellectual Property Office [3] (where I am personally based) both affirm that use of a pseudonym is permitted.
I'm sure there are others who have more expertise in the subject who could provide more reasons and context, but I personally feel like this is an unnecessary barrier to contribution and may exclude talented contributors from our projects.
Cheers,
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 3:04 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Hi Folks,
There was a query from one of the projects about Pseudonyms for DCO and CLA. The CNCF staff has clarified the current policy:
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Worth noting the policy doesn't define "real name".
This could be implied to mean full legal name (not a lawyer, but I
think that's the common usage term in law). Or you could imply it to
mean "the name literally everyone calls me in the real world". Those
two names for lots of people could be different.
That I think makes it clearer how this can be exclusionary and open to
being weaponised against marginalised folks.
Gareth
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 at 07:26, Frederick Kautz <frederick@...> wrote:
This policy is going to exclude a lot of people who are at risk from harassment. A significant number of people use pseudonyms today. We should consider revising this policy. Perhaps there is a path where we can allow people to register their pseudonym to help balance privacy and legal protection of the projects.
On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Christoph Blecker <cblecker@...> wrote:
This isn't so much a question, as it is a request for the CNCF/TOC to review and possibly reverse this policy. While I and many others choose to use their legal name when contributing to projects, there are many reasons why someone might choose to use a pseudonym while contributing. Examples of some of those reasons and the harm that a "real names" policy can create are discussed in the EFF's open letter to Facebook, when Facebook introduced their real name policy in 2015 [1].
Pseudonyms are also used regularly when publishing copyrighted works. When used in the book publishing industry, they are commonly known as "pen names". The U.S. Copyright Office [2] (where the CNCF is based) and the Canadian Intellectual Property Office [3] (where I am personally based) both affirm that use of a pseudonym is permitted.
I'm sure there are others who have more expertise in the subject who could provide more reasons and context, but I personally feel like this is an unnecessary barrier to contribution and may exclude talented contributors from our projects.
Cheers,
Christoph Blecker
[1]: https://www.eff.org/document/open-letter-facebook-about-its-real-names-policy
[2]: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ32.pdf
[3]: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/h_wr02281.html?Open&wt_src=cipo-cpyrght-main&wt_cxt=learn#copyrightInformation
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 3:04 PM Davanum Srinivas <davanum@...> wrote:
Hi Folks,
There was a query from one of the projects about Pseudonyms for DCO and CLA. The CNCF staff has clarified the current policy:
- https://github.com/cncf/foundation/issues/379
- https://github.com/cncf/toc/commit/4b5d5049bce9719bff4b10939389204bc0493557
If you have any questions related to this policy, please chime in.
thanks,
Dims
--
Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims
--
Gareth Rushgrove
@garethr
garethr.dev
devopsweekly.com
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Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
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Davanum Srinivas
Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
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Davanum Srinivas
ChrisA,
Hope you don't mind me talking candidly :) should have cross checked the recipients :)
-- Dims
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 6:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
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On 7/6/22 15:09, Davanum Srinivas wrote: So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
Can we get a clarification on "Real Names", please? That could resolve this. I'm sure other LF projects aren't turning away trans contributors ... is there language they use? -- -- Josh Berkus Kubernetes Community Architect OSPO, OCTO
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+1 to the concerns here, and +1 to having the appropriate folks discuss this issue, in ways that consider both the legal requirements regarding copyright assignment, and precedent in other organizations, and the societal implications.
Without commenting in any way on the merits of ChrisA's update, I would like to suggest reverting that FAQ change to give time for the conversation to happen and so that the guidance (and its ramifications) can be properly thought out.
Best, --Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
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Chris Aniszczyk
Hey folks, just to let you know, this is a policy that has been in place for awhile in multiple LF communities like the Linux Kernel, Hyperledger etc.
I'm not reverting the change as this is what the policy is and it makes that clear.
If you want to change this, I'd advise you open a new issue and talk to your developer reps who will have to bring it up to the GB.
+1 to the concerns here, and +1 to having the appropriate folks discuss this issue, in ways that consider both the legal requirements regarding copyright assignment, and precedent in other organizations, and the societal implications.
Without commenting in any way on the merits of ChrisA's update, I would like to suggest reverting that FAQ change to give time for the conversation to happen and so that the guidance (and its ramifications) can be properly thought out.
Best, --Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
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Chris Aniszczyk
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:20 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: On 7/6/22 15:09, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for
> *new* project(s) for now.
>
Can we get a clarification on "Real Names", please? That could resolve
this. I'm sure other LF projects aren't turning away trans contributors
... is there language they use?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
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+1
Although it might be difficult to quantify the size and scope of impact, it is nonetheless important that we find a solution.
As there is a body of prior art and consensus on the topic, I’m optimistic that [capital “W”] We can find path(s) forward that could address and balance these concerns.
On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 2:26 AM Frederick Kautz < frederick@...> wrote: This policy is going to exclude a lot of people who are at risk from harassment. A significant number of people use pseudonyms today. We should consider revising this policy. Perhaps there is a path where we can allow people to register their pseudonym to help balance privacy and legal protection of the projects. On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 2:23 PM Christoph Blecker < cblecker@...> wrote: This isn't so much a question, as it is a request for the CNCF/TOC to review and possibly reverse this policy. While I and many others choose to use their legal name when contributing to projects, there are many reasons why someone might choose to use a pseudonym while contributing. Examples of some of those reasons and the harm that a "real names" policy can create are discussed in the EFF's open letter to Facebook, when Facebook introduced their real name policy in 2015 [1].
Pseudonyms are also used regularly when publishing copyrighted works. When used in the book publishing industry, they are commonly known as "pen names". The U.S. Copyright Office [2] (where the CNCF is based) and the Canadian Intellectual Property Office [3] (where I am personally based) both affirm that use of a pseudonym is permitted.
I'm sure there are others who have more expertise in the subject who could provide more reasons and context, but I personally feel like this is an unnecessary barrier to contribution and may exclude talented contributors from our projects.
Cheers,
On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 3:04 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Hi Folks,
There was a query from one of the projects about Pseudonyms for DCO and CLA. The CNCF staff has clarified the current policy:
|
|
|
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate the clarification.
--Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:46 PM Chris Aniszczyk < caniszczyk@...> wrote: Hey folks, just to let you know, this is a policy that has been in place for awhile in multiple LF communities like the Linux Kernel, Hyperledger etc.
I'm not reverting the change as this is what the policy is and it makes that clear.
If you want to change this, I'd advise you open a new issue and talk to your developer reps who will have to bring it up to the GB.
+1 to the concerns here, and +1 to having the appropriate folks discuss this issue, in ways that consider both the legal requirements regarding copyright assignment, and precedent in other organizations, and the societal implications.
Without commenting in any way on the merits of ChrisA's update, I would like to suggest reverting that FAQ change to give time for the conversation to happen and so that the guidance (and its ramifications) can be properly thought out.
Best, --Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
--
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Davanum Srinivas
Folks,
Please use this issue and add as much context/questions as you can so the GB and GB's Legal Committee can consider them during their decision making process:
Thanks, Dims
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate the clarification.
--Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:46 PM Chris Aniszczyk < caniszczyk@...> wrote: Hey folks, just to let you know, this is a policy that has been in place for awhile in multiple LF communities like the Linux Kernel, Hyperledger etc.
I'm not reverting the change as this is what the policy is and it makes that clear.
If you want to change this, I'd advise you open a new issue and talk to your developer reps who will have to bring it up to the GB.
+1 to the concerns here, and +1 to having the appropriate folks discuss this issue, in ways that consider both the legal requirements regarding copyright assignment, and precedent in other organizations, and the societal implications.
Without commenting in any way on the merits of ChrisA's update, I would like to suggest reverting that FAQ change to give time for the conversation to happen and so that the guidance (and its ramifications) can be properly thought out.
Best, --Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
--
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Davanum Srinivas
Many thanks to ChrisA and MikeD
thanks, Dims
Folks,
Please use this issue and add as much context/questions as you can so the GB and GB's Legal Committee can consider them during their decision making process:
Thanks, Dims Thanks, Chris. I appreciate the clarification.
--Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:46 PM Chris Aniszczyk < caniszczyk@...> wrote: Hey folks, just to let you know, this is a policy that has been in place for awhile in multiple LF communities like the Linux Kernel, Hyperledger etc.
I'm not reverting the change as this is what the policy is and it makes that clear.
If you want to change this, I'd advise you open a new issue and talk to your developer reps who will have to bring it up to the GB.
+1 to the concerns here, and +1 to having the appropriate folks discuss this issue, in ways that consider both the legal requirements regarding copyright assignment, and precedent in other organizations, and the societal implications.
Without commenting in any way on the merits of ChrisA's update, I would like to suggest reverting that FAQ change to give time for the conversation to happen and so that the guidance (and its ramifications) can be properly thought out.
Best, --Aeva
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 3:09 PM Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...> wrote: Josh,
I would tell folks to NOT change anything that they are doing today.
ChrisA jumped the gun and pushed the change directly to master. I was looking to have a conversation + debate.
I am waiting for some notes from the original person who asked the questions, so then we could figure out how to get it in front of the GB Legal Committee.
So tell them to hang tight and not change a thing. Let this be a FAQ for *new* project(s) for now.
-- Dims On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 5:27 PM Josh Berkus < jberkus@...> wrote: Dims,
Can you explain how we reconcile this with the CNCF code of conduct?
Asking because a simple reading of it would require "deadnaming" many of
our trans contributors. How do we avoid that?
--
-- Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community Architect
OSPO, OCTO
--
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