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I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
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I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
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yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want
- free & open - automated pipelines - faster to make changes - ..?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
--
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Dustin Kirkland <kirkland@...>
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote: yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers
want
- free & open
- automated pipelines
- faster to make changes
- ..? +1 to those. Here are a few others: - interoperability with others - choice/plugability at every level - velocity, but stability
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I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution
We have a cloud native triangle composed of:
1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.
From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.
Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want
- free & open - automated pipelines - faster to make changes - ..?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
--
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*but obviously = *because obviously
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:15 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution
We have a cloud native triangle composed of:
1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.
From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.
Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want
- free & open - automated pipelines - faster to make changes - ..?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
--
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I like those Dustin.
Can we come up with "5 values"?
Let's say that Sally is a developer, and thinking about attending a Cloud Native conference or meetup in 2017. What are the shared values of the people whom she expects to meet there? What is it about her "tribe" that makes it different from other communities?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:13 AM Dustin Kirkland < kirkland@...> wrote: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc
<cncf-toc@...> wrote:
> yes
>
> we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers
> want
>
> - free & open
> - automated pipelines
> - faster to make changes
> - ..?
+1 to those. Here are a few others:
- interoperability with others
- choice/plugability at every level
- velocity, but stability
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Mark,
Those are good too :-) Please see my reply to Dustin. Can we come up with "5 values"? (or is it 3? it can't be more than 5). What are the key freedoms and capabilities that impact cloud native app developers at a primal/emotional level? "I'm here because I love ..."
a
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:15 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution
We have a cloud native triangle composed of:
1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.
From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.
Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want
- free & open - automated pipelines - faster to make changes - ..?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
--
--
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Anthony Skipper <anthony@...>
I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote: I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution
We have a cloud native triangle composed of:
1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.
From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.
Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
yes
we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want
- free & open - automated pipelines - faster to make changes - ..?
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman < mark@...> wrote: I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.
The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.
Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write. The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.
--
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On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper < anthony@...> wrote: I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.
Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value. It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues. But not the only one.
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Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.
On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" < cncf-toc@...> wrote: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper < anthony@...> wrote: I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.
Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value. It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues. But not the only one.
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I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:
1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
?
If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier < skamille@...> wrote: Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.
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I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
Currently the charter has: - container packaged - dynamically managed - micro-services oriented.
I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).
I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.
So: 1. Speed of change 2. Resilience 3. Dynamically scalable
And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.
Andy
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote: I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:
1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards) 2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors) 3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff
?
If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier < skamille@...> wrote: Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.
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Dustin Kirkland <kirkland@...>
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote: I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people
won't be able to repeat as a mantra. Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
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Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can get any or all of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an important distinction.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland < kirkland@...> wrote: On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
<cncf-toc@...> wrote:
> I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people
> won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
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On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote: Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better. Dynamic, or horizontal....
I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an important distinction.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
<cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
> I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
and people
> won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
--
+31 652134960
CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
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Just to wrap up this thread:
1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions. This is clearly an area that matters to people.
2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair.
alexis
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote:
On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
> <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
> > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
> and people
> > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
> Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
--
Scott McCarty, RHCA
Technical Product Marketing: Containers
Email: smccarty@...
Phone: 312-660-3535
Cell: 330-807-1043
Web: http://crunchtools.com
When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote: Just to wrap up this thread:
1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions. This is clearly an area that matters to people.
2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote:
On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
> <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
> > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
> and people
> > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
> Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
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Scott McCarty, RHCA
Technical Product Marketing: Containers
Email: smccarty@...
Phone: 312-660-3535
Cell: 330-807-1043
Web: http://crunchtools.com
When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i
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Many thanks Joe! I thought that was a great series. Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda < joe@...> wrote: On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote: Just to wrap up this thread:
1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions. This is clearly an area that matters to people.
2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote:
On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
> <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
> > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
> and people
> > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
> Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
--
Scott McCarty, RHCA
Technical Product Marketing: Containers
Email: smccarty@...
Phone: 312-660-3535
Cell: 330-807-1043
Web: http://crunchtools.com
When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i
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This series was essentially a reworking of that. I tried to update it as I wrote it out.
This stuff was aimed at the ~CIO level so I tried to keep things approachable but real. Happy to go in to more depth if the discussion would be useful.
Joe
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:27 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Many thanks Joe! I thought that was a great series. Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda < joe@...> wrote: On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote: Just to wrap up this thread:
1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions. This is clearly an area that matters to people.
2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc < cncf-toc@...> wrote:
On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
> <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
> > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
> and people
> > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
> Agreed. I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc
--
Scott McCarty, RHCA
Technical Product Marketing: Containers
Email: smccarty@...
Phone: 312-660-3535
Cell: 330-807-1043
Web: http://crunchtools.com
When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i
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