It wasn't in the sandbox, they went straight for incubation: https://github.com/datawire/ambassador

I know it can be confusing as they were originally considered a sandbox contribution but decided to go straight for incubation.

We will work with the project and come up with a new name based on this feedback.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:25 PM Liz Rice <liz@...> wrote:

This question is probably six months too late, but didn't CNCF own the Ambasaador trademark (since the project joined Sandbox)? 

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 at 18:08, Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

Personally I disagree that this is akin to asking for a license change. 

The name is an intrinsic part of the project. It is the primary key for the community.  This feels more like accepting a fork (well, I'm assuming there is no divergence) while the original project stays with the commercial entity.  Personally, I'm interested to see how much of a community is left after the name change and how much of that community is attached to the commercial entity named "Ambassador".

Joe

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:04 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

I don't think we have to fully pause everything but it's up to the TOC here, if the TOC is saying "choose another name than IC4EP or something else that wouldn't confuse end users" before we accept the project fully then the project can do that in parallel as we onboard it as part of staff duties. We can work with the project to pick up a name and run it by the TOC again.

IMHO I view this a bit similar to a project coming in that may have to change a license to Apache-2 etc (like grpc did as an example), just part of the onboarding process.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:57 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

This question is probably six months too late, but didn't CNCF own the Ambasaador trademark (since the project joined Sandbox)? 

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 at 18:08, Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

Personally I disagree that this is akin to asking for a license change. 

The name is an intrinsic part of the project. It is the primary key for the community.  This feels more like accepting a fork (well, I'm assuming there is no divergence) while the original project stays with the commercial entity.  Personally, I'm interested to see how much of a community is left after the name change and how much of that community is attached to the commercial entity named "Ambassador".

Joe

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:04 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

I don't think we have to fully pause everything but it's up to the TOC here, if the TOC is saying "choose another name than IC4EP or something else that wouldn't confuse end users" before we accept the project fully then the project can do that in parallel as we onboard it as part of staff duties. We can work with the project to pick up a name and run it by the TOC again.

IMHO I view this a bit similar to a project coming in that may have to change a license to Apache-2 etc (like grpc did as an example), just part of the onboarding process.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:57 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

Personally I disagree that this is akin to asking for a license change. 

The name is an intrinsic part of the project. It is the primary key for the community.  This feels more like accepting a fork (well, I'm assuming there is no divergence) while the original project stays with the commercial entity.  Personally, I'm interested to see how much of a community is left after the name change and how much of that community is attached to the commercial entity named "Ambassador".

Joe

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:04 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

I don't think we have to fully pause everything but it's up to the TOC here, if the TOC is saying "choose another name than IC4EP or something else that wouldn't confuse end users" before we accept the project fully then the project can do that in parallel as we onboard it as part of staff duties. We can work with the project to pick up a name and run it by the TOC again.

IMHO I view this a bit similar to a project coming in that may have to change a license to Apache-2 etc (like grpc did as an example), just part of the onboarding process.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:57 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

I don't think we have to fully pause everything but it's up to the TOC here, if the TOC is saying "choose another name than IC4EP or something else that wouldn't confuse end users" before we accept the project fully then the project can do that in parallel as we onboard it as part of staff duties. We can work with the project to pick up a name and run it by the TOC again.

IMHO I view this a bit similar to a project coming in that may have to change a license to Apache-2 etc (like grpc did as an example), just part of the onboarding process.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:57 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

I don't think we have to fully pause everything but it's up to the TOC here, if the TOC is saying "choose another name than IC4EP or something else that wouldn't confuse end users" before we accept the project fully then the project can do that in parallel as we onboard it as part of staff duties. We can work with the project to pick up a name and run it by the TOC again.

IMHO I view this a bit similar to a project coming in that may have to change a license to Apache-2 etc (like grpc did as an example), just part of the onboarding process.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:57 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

OK then IMO we have to pause this for a bit. Can we finalize the name, get it fully done, and then re-submit the DD with the new name, website, etc. clearly in place?

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:55 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
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I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

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Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

The problem is the company rebranded to Ambassador also here: https://www.getambassador.io, so the project needs to be renamed to deal with the obvious trademark conflict here. The CNCF is open to whatever the project decides and that clears a trademark search.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 11:50 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

--

Chris Aniszczyk (@cra)

Also, to be clear, I think Ambassador is a big part of the OSS brand and I had erroneously thought that we were sticking with that name. If we are going to change the name to something entirely new it might be good to do that and then circle back in a few months to see how it's going.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:47 AM Matt Klein via lists.cncf.io <mattklein123=gmail.com@...> wrote:

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

I'm sorry for not tracking this more closely, but I agree with Joe on this. I'm not OK with an acronym for something that IMO is too generic. I think you either have to stick with Ambassador or choose an entirely new name.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:37 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

IC4E only begs the question about what it stands for.  It also doesn't set the project up, IMO, for success as the more memorable name will be with the commercial entity and it could stunt the development of the open source project outside of the commercial attachments.  If this were at the Sandbox level I probably wouldn't be bringing this up, but the name change along with introduction into Incubation is something new that the CNCF hasn't seen before.  I worry people will still colloquially refer to the OSS project as "Ambassador" (and documentation and install scripts still use the name).

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:32 AM Daniel Bryant <daniel.bryant@...> wrote:

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

Hi Joe, Matt, many thanks for your comments.

@Matt, I remember you raising this in the DD document comments, and @Chris Aniszczyk suggested this would be acceptable under the trademark policy (e.g. "X for Envoy"). He suggested that we use a short name like "IC4E" in the docs and new website that would be created for the project.

We originally looked to ingress-nginx as inspiration, since the community seems to have accepted this as a name even though it’s well-understood it’s not “official”. We also wanted to with a descriptive name instead of an abstract name, because we thought it would be easier for people to understand.

Best wishes,

Daniel

On 06/01/2021 19:54, Matt Klein wrote:

> I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

I agree and I raised a similar concern at some point but I don't remember the outcome here. @Daniel Bryant?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:48 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

-- 
Daniel Bryant | @danielbryantuk 
--
I like to work flexible hours (and across time zones), but please don't feel obligated to reply to this message outside of your own working hours.

What is the new name?  The name "ambassador" is all over the docs and I'd expect to see this reframed around the new name.

I object to the name "Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy” as that also describes Contour.  This will create confusion and will be easily misread as "THE Ingress Controller for Envoy Proxy" and will violate the "no kingmakers" value of the TOC.

Joe

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:12 AM Matt Klein <mattklein123@...> wrote:

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt

All,

Ambassador is applying for incubation status:

• Issue: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/435
• DD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJhfqEADNI7YSQPyi8Kmb1VvN2FaqxMFRsYvp-vZQLg/edit

DD has been reviewed by myself and SIG Network and we are supportive. We are now calling for the 2 week public comment period prior to the vote.

Thanks,

Matt