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Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
It's technically not wrong I guess.... On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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David McKay <david.andrew.mckay@...>
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Shannon Williams <shannon@...>
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo.
@Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...>
On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure
to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message.
Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is anexample of "lying by omission". It is not OK.On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina < matt@...> wrote: While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is anexample of "lying by omission". It is not OK.On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Thank you Dan
I must say I'm a bit sceptical about stars. I wish it were more like stack overflow or discuss, so that you have to earn the right to give them out.
On 6 Jun 2019, 22:46 +0100, Dan Kohn <dan@...>, wrote:
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina < matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Would it be appropriate to respond in a more public manner? Maybe just an article that says "check out our updated landscape" maybe to mention the archival of projects etc.. as well.
Just thinking out loud.
Thanks for catching this Alexis. Is there some way we can capture this in a more official/automated manner in the future?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:31 PM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Thank you Dan
I must say I'm a bit sceptical about stars. I wish it were more like stack overflow or discuss, so that you have to earn the right to give them out.
On 6 Jun 2019, 22:46 +0100, Dan Kohn < dan@...>, wrote:
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina < matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Jennifer Lankford <jennifer@...>
My first instinct would be to contact them directly to get them to course correct immediately, and make a public statement warning against this practice to the community. They also owe the community an apology. Bad look.
I TRY to not assume ill intent but it’s clearly a very smarmy move on their part. Maaaybe it’s a misguided and ignorant mistake by an overzealous junior marketer. Hopefully not a founder. But it also needs to serve as an example and cautionary tale of what not to do.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:38 PM, Erin Boyd < eboyd@...> wrote:
Would it be appropriate to respond in a more public manner? Maybe just an article that says "check out our updated landscape" maybe to mention the archival of projects etc.. as well.
Just thinking out loud.
Thanks for catching this Alexis. Is there some way we can capture this in a more official/automated manner in the future?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:31 PM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Thank you Dan
I must say I'm a bit sceptical about stars. I wish it were more like stack overflow or discuss, so that you have to earn the right to give them out.
On 6 Jun 2019, 22:46 +0100, Dan Kohn < dan@...>, wrote:
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina < matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
--
Erin A. Boyd
Senior Principal Software Engineer, OCTO
Red Hat
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Liz,
A bit orthogonal to the thread... but since you asked ;)
I find forks to be a far superior metric of a project's success at building a community, interest in the project, and maintaining a long-running project. Forks indicate individual or corporate developer interest. Some percentage of forks result in PRs from said forker. This ratio is easy to measure at the project level via the github timeline or the google bigquery data export to github. This ratio could be used to objectively measure the success of a project (while stars are highly subjective in nature and there is an open market for star purchases). Gaming forks would be more involved...
Would be helpful if github provided this information in the form of "community health" on their dashboards.
Dan,
The PR LGTM (although I don't represent netdata) and is much more diplomatic than a public complaint or involving attorneys/etc :). Thanks for protecting the CNCF.
Cheers -steve
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 3:26 PM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Thank you Dan
I must say I'm a bit sceptical about stars. I wish it were more like stack overflow or discuss, so that you have to earn the right to give them out.
On 6 Jun 2019, 22:46 +0100, Dan Kohn < dan@...>, wrote:
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina < matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson < alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Shannon Williams <shannon@...>
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...>
wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via
Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other
than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or
opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities (raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams <shannon@...>, wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Davanum Srinivas
Liz,
Isn't there a challenge that folks who may want to "game" will not use the new system as it does not show the "inflated" numbers that they currently use?
Thanks, Dims
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:33 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities (raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams < shannon@...>, wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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I wasn't clear - I was thinking about the criteria the CNCF has for adding projects to the landscape (where one of the criteria is some number of github stars, if I recall correctly).
On 7 Jun 2019, 12:01 +0100, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@...>, wrote:
Liz,
Isn't there a challenge that folks who may want to "game" will not use the new system as it does not show the "inflated" numbers that they currently use?
Thanks,
Dims
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:33 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities (raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams < shannon@...>, wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:58 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
I wasn't clear - I was thinking about the criteria the CNCF has for adding projects to the landscape (where one of the criteria is some number of github stars, if I recall correctly).
On 7 Jun 2019, 12:01 +0100, Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...>, wrote:
Liz,
Isn't there a challenge that folks who may want to "game" will not use the new system as it does not show the "inflated" numbers that they currently use?
Thanks,
Dims
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:33 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities (raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams < shannon@...>, wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
--
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Well, stars are a vanity or input metric. How about downloads, traffic, engagements. GitHub has some stats available … Cheers, Michael -- Developer Advocate @ AWS +353 86 0215164 On 7 June 2019 at 13:17:40, Dan Kohn (dan@...) wrote: Yes, it requires 300 stars to get added, among other criteria.
https://github.com/cncf/landscape#new-entries
I'd welcome ideas for additional requirements.
Relatedly, netdata merged my PR:
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/pull/6234
--
Dan Kohn
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:58 AM Liz Rice wrote:
I wasn't clear - I was thinking about the criteria the CNCF has for adding
projects to the landscape (where one of the criteria is some number of
github stars, if I recall correctly).
On 7 Jun 2019, 12:01 +0100, Davanum Srinivas , wrote:
Liz,
Isn't there a challenge that folks who may want to "game" will not use the
new system as it does not show the "inflated" numbers that they currently
use?
Thanks,
Dims
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:33 AM Liz Rice wrote:
Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only
counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities
(raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their
profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams , wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams
Rancher Labs
shannon@...
+1 650-521-6902
*From:* Dan Kohn
*Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
*To:* Matthew Farina
*Cc:* Alexis Richardson ; Shannon Williams <
shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <
josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC
*Subject:* Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
I created this PR: https://github.com/netdata/netdata/pull/6234
--
Dan Kohn
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules.
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures,
signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events,
products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
Just thinking out loud.
--
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams
wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we
can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... On Behalf Of David
McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it
seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards
being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in
their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M,
wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and
is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee,
any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be
unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether
inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or
confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde
Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message.
Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
--
Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims
Amazon Data Services Ireland Limited registered office: One Burlington Plaza, Burlington Road, Dublin 4, Ireland. Registered in Ireland. Registration number 390566.
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Jeff Billimek
It looks like the criteria to get added to the 'CNCF Landscape' page is outlined here. It looks like the entry for netdata was originally added in this commit. Did they ask to be added? I wonder if there was confusion about being listed in the 'CNCF Landscape' page as implicit 'membership' of the CNCF.
Perhaps we need to update the language in the landscape repo to indicate that projects added to the 'CNCF Landscape' are not allowed to use the CNCF logo in their product, if that is the concern in this situation?
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Dan, thanks for handling this in a polite way.
I’ve witnessed and heard about worse moves than this to promote projects and products. The cloud native space is pretty crowded and people are looking for an edge. Some will try to game the system. Some will push the limit in marketing. At the least, we can be polite and first approach people in a kind manner. I prefer to start from Hanlon’s razor.
On Jun 7, 2019, at 8:16 AM, Dan Kohn < dan@...> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:58 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
I wasn't clear - I was thinking about the criteria the CNCF has for adding projects to the landscape (where one of the criteria is some number of github stars, if I recall correctly).
On 7 Jun 2019, 12:01 +0100, Davanum Srinivas < davanum@...>, wrote:
Liz,
Isn't there a challenge that folks who may want to "game" will not use the new system as it does not show the "inflated" numbers that they currently use?
Thanks,
Dims
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 3:33 AM Liz Rice < liz@...> wrote:
Maybe we (or GitHub) could build some kind of “realstars” count which only counts stars from folks who have also done some number of other activities (raising PRs or issues, making comments, maybe even just filling in their profile...)
On 7 Jun 2019, 01:00 +0100, Shannon Williams < shannon@...>, wrote:
Perfect Dan, thanks.
Best Regards,
Shannon Williams Rancher Labs shannon@... +1 650-521-6902
From: Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 2:46 PM
To: Matthew Farina <matt@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson <alexis@...>; Shannon Williams <shannon@...>; david.andrew.mckay@...; Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 4:58 PM Matthew Farina <matt@...> wrote:
While I’m not a lawyer, I wonder if this violates the trademark rules. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/trademark-usage/ states:
Do not use a logo of The Linux Foundation on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from The Linux Foundation.
On Jun 6, 2019, at 4:51 PM, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
The site doesn't say "applied for CNCF and was rejected". This is an
example of "lying by omission". It is not OK.
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 9:49 PM Shannon Williams <shannon@...> wrote:
+1 – feels like an inappropriate use of the logo. @Dan Kohn – anything we can do to stop that?
From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of David McKay via Lists.Cncf.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 1:40 PM
To: Josh M <josh.michielsen@...>
Cc: cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] netdata shitshow
While not "technically" incorrect, I understand what Alexis is saying; it seems like unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified.
IIRC, they did try to become a CNCF project and had no sponsors.
A quick Google shows that they're using this "endorsement" actively in their marketing campaigns:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17304734
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 13:30 Josh M, <josh.michielsen@...> wrote:
It's technically not wrong I guess....
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm alexis richardson, <alexis@...> wrote:
"Netdata is in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) landscape
and it is the 3rd most starred open-source project. Check the CNCF TOC
Netdata presentation."
https://github.com/netdata/netdata/blob/master/README.md
The information contained in this e-mail is of a confidential nature and is intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended addressee, any disclosure, copying or distribution by you is prohibited and may be unlawful. Disclosure to any party other than the addressee, whether inadvertent or otherwise, is not intended to waive privilege or confidentiality. Internet communications are not secure and therefore Conde Nast does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions expressed are those of the author.
--
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Costa Tsaousis
Hi all,
I am the founder of Netdata.
We have merged Dan's PR. Thank you Dan!
David McKay you mention that the above are "unethical wording used intentionally to cause inferences towards being CNCF supported/approved/certified". It would be if the phrase "in the landscape" was missing. You may of course mean that most people may not be aware of what the CNCF landscape is, so we should better clarify that Netdata is not CNCF supported/approved/certified. I ack that and this is why we merged Dan's PR immediately after it was submitted.
I was not aware that projects in the landscape are not authorized to use the CNCF logo. I thought that once a project has been accepted in the landscape, it has the right to feature the CNCF logo at its README. Shannon Williams and Matt Farina thank you for pointing out that use of the logo requires a separate approval. We are removing the CNCF logo from all our material.
David McKay you also mention that we are using this "endorsement" actively in our marketing campaigns. This is not true. Please check the dates of any posts you can find. You will see that we announced it once, immediately after we got accepted to the landscape. There were also a few posts when we bypassed Ansible and got in the 3rd position of the most starred open-source projects. That's it. There was never "active marketing" about it.
Alexis Richardson you posted that "the site doesn't say 'applied for CNCF and was rejected'". Please explain the "rejected" part. When netdata was rejected? How?
During the TOC presentation I did in Sep 2018, TOC members had a discussion on how politics influence CNCF. I think the approval mechanism in place (get TOC members as project sponsors) is the source of the problem. You require from project founders to spend time in public relations to promote their projects. I am sorry, I won't do that! I don't think this means CNCF rejected Netdata. I rejected the CNCF process and Netdata got stuck in the landscape.
Netdata is community driven. It modernizes and simplifies monitoring significantly and the community loves it. We have 39k github stars. 3.5k forks. 500k docker hub pulls per day, every day (on our 3 docker hub repos). 900k active users over the last 3 months. 80k git clones from 62k unique cloners in the last 15 days. On the project we have 10 full-time developers and we plan to be more 20 by the end of the year.
So, like it or not, CNCF supported/approved/certified or not, Netdata is thriving.
Be sure that I honor CNCF and I don't want to remove Netdata from the landscape. On our part, we plan to support more CNCF projects as we recently did for K8s and also become a Silver sponsor after we complete our Series A.
Thanks a lot for everything you do for the community and looking to collaborate more closely in the future.
Apologies for any mishaps on our side.
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