Date   

Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Kitson, Clinton <Clinton.Kitson@...>
 


I agree with some earlier comments about being too opinionated. A broad definition could be "a computing environment focused on optimizing for applications in cloud operating models". This feels like the most natural and direct way to define cloud native computing while ensuring the relevance to how we are seeing people make use of it today and tomorrow.

The definition leads to a lot of what was discussed in this thread.
- Requirements (interoperability/composability, automation/orchestration)
- Patterns (micro-services, scale-out, DevOps, CI)
- Components (cncf landscape)
- Benefits/features (resilience, scale, efficiency, resilience, portability)




Clint Kitson
Technical Director
{code} by Dell EMC
--- 
email: Clinton.Kitson@...
mobile: "+1 424 645 4116"
team: codeDellEMC.com
twitter: "@clintonskitson"
github: github.com/clintonskitson


From: cncf-toc-bounces@... [cncf-toc-bounces@...] on behalf of Brian Grant via cncf-toc [cncf-toc@...]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:32 PM
To: Tony Hsu
Cc: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Interesting tech marketing from Amazon


On Feb 17, 2017 2:00 AM, "Tony Hsu via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
As a big fan of Joe Beta and Craig McLuckie, my three ingredients for cloud-native operations are containers, orchestrators and microservice frameworks. These three terms come from Craig's post announcing the start of Heptio. https://goo.gl/aJgiQk

+1

That's very concrete, and provides a framework for explaining what and why.


Our limbic brains are responsible for all of our feelings, like trust and loyalty. It's also responsible for all human behavior, all decision-making, and it has no capacity for language. Please don't rely on logic and facts, it just doesn't drive behavior.

I got this from Simon Sinek's TED talk 'How great leaders inspire action'. https://goo.gl/EsJRvy

Regards,
Tony Hsu

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Yaron Haviv via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think the key message of Cloud-Native should be about its value:

Continuous Development and Operation (Enabling Business Agility/Transformation)  

 

Decomposition to micro-services, stateless, disposable/distributed components, Atomicity .. are the ways by which we achieve that goal, and those may evolve over time. If we want to engage more business owners lets focus on what’s in it for them and the need for a change vs tech buzzwords.   

 

My 2c, Yaron

CTO, iguazio  

 

From: cncf-toc-bounces@... [mailto:cncf-toc-bounces@lists.cncf.io] On Behalf Of Brian Grant via cncf-toc
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:05 AM
To: Andrew Randall <andy@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.

 

Currently the charter has:

- container packaged

- dynamically managed

- micro-services oriented.

 

I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).

 

I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.

 

Management includes scaling, so IMO "dynamically managed" implies dynamic scaling, as well as a higher rate of change than people had been accustomed to in the past.

 

In practice, the way this is achieved is through automation.

 

 

The inclusion of container-packaged and micro-services in the charter is an opinionated (and informed) stance about where the puck is headed.

 

 

So:

1. Speed of change

2. Resilience

3. Dynamically scalable

 

And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.

 

Andy

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:

 

1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

?

 

If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.

 

On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper <anthony@...> wrote:

I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.

 

Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value.  It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues.  But not the only one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution

 

We have a cloud native triangle composed of:

 

1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.

 

From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.

 

Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

yes

 

we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want

 

- free & open 

- automated pipelines

- faster to make changes

- ..?

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:

I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.

 

The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.

 

Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write.  The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.

 

 

--

 

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CEO

Tigera, Inc.


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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Brian Grant
 


On Feb 17, 2017 2:00 AM, "Tony Hsu via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
As a big fan of Joe Beta and Craig McLuckie, my three ingredients for cloud-native operations are containers, orchestrators and microservice frameworks. These three terms come from Craig's post announcing the start of Heptio. https://goo.gl/aJgiQk

+1

That's very concrete, and provides a framework for explaining what and why.


Our limbic brains are responsible for all of our feelings, like trust and loyalty. It's also responsible for all human behavior, all decision-making, and it has no capacity for language. Please don't rely on logic and facts, it just doesn't drive behavior.

I got this from Simon Sinek's TED talk 'How great leaders inspire action'. https://goo.gl/EsJRvy

Regards,
Tony Hsu

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Yaron Haviv via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think the key message of Cloud-Native should be about its value:

Continuous Development and Operation (Enabling Business Agility/Transformation)  

 

Decomposition to micro-services, stateless, disposable/distributed components, Atomicity .. are the ways by which we achieve that goal, and those may evolve over time. If we want to engage more business owners lets focus on what’s in it for them and the need for a change vs tech buzzwords.   

 

My 2c, Yaron

CTO, iguazio  

 

From: cncf-toc-bounces@... [mailto:cncf-toc-bounces@lists.cncf.io] On Behalf Of Brian Grant via cncf-toc
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:05 AM
To: Andrew Randall <andy@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.

 

Currently the charter has:

- container packaged

- dynamically managed

- micro-services oriented.

 

I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).

 

I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.

 

Management includes scaling, so IMO "dynamically managed" implies dynamic scaling, as well as a higher rate of change than people had been accustomed to in the past.

 

In practice, the way this is achieved is through automation.

 

 

The inclusion of container-packaged and micro-services in the charter is an opinionated (and informed) stance about where the puck is headed.

 

 

So:

1. Speed of change

2. Resilience

3. Dynamically scalable

 

And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.

 

Andy

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:

 

1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

?

 

If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.

 

On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper <anthony@...> wrote:

I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.

 

Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value.  It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues.  But not the only one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution

 

We have a cloud native triangle composed of:

 

1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.

 

From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.

 

Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

yes

 

we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want

 

- free & open 

- automated pipelines

- faster to make changes

- ..?

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:

I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.

 

The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.

 

Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write.  The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.

 

 

--

 

_______________________________________________
cncf-toc mailing list
cncf-toc@...
https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc


_______________________________________________
cncf-toc mailing list
cncf-toc@...
https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

 

--

_______________________________________________
cncf-toc mailing list
cncf-toc@...
https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

--

Andrew Randall

CEO

Tigera, Inc.


_______________________________________________
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https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

 


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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Lee Calcote
 

+1 for Thursdays at the same time.

- Lee
 

On Feb 16, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Weaver, Nicholas via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

Either works for me
 
 
-- 
 
Nicholas Weaver
Director - Software Engineering
Intel, Datacenter Solutions Group
 
From: <cncf-toc-bounces@...> on behalf of Camille Fournier via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Reply-To: Camille Fournier <skamille@...>
Date: Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:05 PM
To: Brian Grant <briangrant@...>
Cc: "cncf-toc@..." <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future
 
I'm flexible
 
On Feb 16, 2017 2:58 PM, "Brian Grant via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
These times/days would work for me, thanks.
 
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
TOC members, 
 
We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?
 
TOC community,
 
We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  
 
To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.
 
alexis
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Tony Hsu
 

As a big fan of Joe Beta and Craig McLuckie, my three ingredients for cloud-native operations are containers, orchestrators and microservice frameworks. These three terms come from Craig's post announcing the start of Heptio. https://goo.gl/aJgiQk

Our limbic brains are responsible for all of our feelings, like trust and loyalty. It's also responsible for all human behavior, all decision-making, and it has no capacity for language. Please don't rely on logic and facts, it just doesn't drive behavior.

I got this from Simon Sinek's TED talk 'How great leaders inspire action'. https://goo.gl/EsJRvy

Regards,
Tony Hsu

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Yaron Haviv via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think the key message of Cloud-Native should be about its value:

Continuous Development and Operation (Enabling Business Agility/Transformation)  

 

Decomposition to micro-services, stateless, disposable/distributed components, Atomicity .. are the ways by which we achieve that goal, and those may evolve over time. If we want to engage more business owners lets focus on what’s in it for them and the need for a change vs tech buzzwords.   

 

My 2c, Yaron

CTO, iguazio  

 

From: cncf-toc-bounces@... [mailto:cncf-toc-bounces@lists.cncf.io] On Behalf Of Brian Grant via cncf-toc
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:05 AM
To: Andrew Randall <andy@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.

 

Currently the charter has:

- container packaged

- dynamically managed

- micro-services oriented.

 

I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).

 

I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.

 

Management includes scaling, so IMO "dynamically managed" implies dynamic scaling, as well as a higher rate of change than people had been accustomed to in the past.

 

In practice, the way this is achieved is through automation.

 

 

The inclusion of container-packaged and micro-services in the charter is an opinionated (and informed) stance about where the puck is headed.

 

 

So:

1. Speed of change

2. Resilience

3. Dynamically scalable

 

And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.

 

Andy

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:

 

1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

?

 

If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.

 

On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper <anthony@...> wrote:

I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.

 

Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value.  It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues.  But not the only one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution

 

We have a cloud native triangle composed of:

 

1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.

 

From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.

 

Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

yes

 

we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want

 

- free & open 

- automated pipelines

- faster to make changes

- ..?

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:

I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.

 

The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.

 

Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write.  The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.

 

 

--

 

_______________________________________________
cncf-toc mailing list
cncf-toc@...
https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc


_______________________________________________
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cncf-toc@...
https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

 

--

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https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

--

Andrew Randall

CEO

Tigera, Inc.


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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Yaron Haviv
 

I think the key message of Cloud-Native should be about its value:

Continuous Development and Operation (Enabling Business Agility/Transformation)  

 

Decomposition to micro-services, stateless, disposable/distributed components, Atomicity .. are the ways by which we achieve that goal, and those may evolve over time. If we want to engage more business owners lets focus on what’s in it for them and the need for a change vs tech buzzwords.   

 

My 2c, Yaron

CTO, iguazio  

 

From: cncf-toc-bounces@... [mailto:cncf-toc-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Brian Grant via cncf-toc
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 6:05 AM
To: Andrew Randall <andy@...>
Cc: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.

 

Currently the charter has:

- container packaged

- dynamically managed

- micro-services oriented.

 

I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).

 

I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.

 

Management includes scaling, so IMO "dynamically managed" implies dynamic scaling, as well as a higher rate of change than people had been accustomed to in the past.

 

In practice, the way this is achieved is through automation.

 

 

The inclusion of container-packaged and micro-services in the charter is an opinionated (and informed) stance about where the puck is headed.

 

 

So:

1. Speed of change

2. Resilience

3. Dynamically scalable

 

And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.

 

Andy

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:

 

1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

?

 

If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.

 

On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper <anthony@...> wrote:

I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.

 

Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value.  It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues.  But not the only one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution

 

We have a cloud native triangle composed of:

 

1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)

2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)

3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

 

From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.

 

From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.

 

Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

yes

 

we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want

 

- free & open 

- automated pipelines

- faster to make changes

- ..?

 

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:

I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.

 

The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.

 

Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write.  The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.

 

 

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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Brian Grant
 



On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that and people won't be able to repeat as a mantra.

Currently the charter has:
- container packaged
- dynamically managed
- micro-services oriented.

I like Mark's comments. However, I worry about "massive scale" as a message. LOTS of people I talked with at CloudNativeCon and other shows recently have been doing fairly small scale deployments, but they're still cloud native. I think the nature of how we scale is important -- it's about the distributed, scale-out architectures that enable massive scale (but don't impose a cost burden for the small development shop that's running on a half dozen VMs in AWS).

I think "Dynamically scalable" captures that better.

Management includes scaling, so IMO "dynamically managed" implies dynamic scaling, as well as a higher rate of change than people had been accustomed to in the past.

In practice, the way this is achieved is through automation.


The inclusion of container-packaged and micro-services in the charter is an opinionated (and informed) stance about where the puck is headed.
 

So:
1. Speed of change
2. Resilience
3. Dynamically scalable

And you could add "built on open source foundation" as a fourth, or leave it implicit given the foundation nature of LF/CNCF.

Andy



On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
I agree that we may need to think more about how we communicate about microservices, but do we agree that the underlying purpose of cloud native is:

1. Speed of change (I used to refer to this as agility but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)
2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)
3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

?

If we know what problems we're solving it will be easier to talk about specific practices and tools in a coherent manner.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:
Microservices are cloud native because they are a natural product of the ease of use for cloud. In a evolutionary way I would call them absolutely cloud native, which doesn't mean one must use them to effectively use the cloud but they do effectively show how cloud changed the way developers thought about building systems.

On Feb 14, 2017 10:22 AM, "Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:20 AM Anthony Skipper <anthony@...> wrote:
I'd argue that if you had good tools, you wouldn't need microservices.

Yes, I don't think microservices is a core value.  It's one of several modern cloud native patterns that is useful for some organisational and technical issues.  But not the only one.

 




On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
I think I summarised it in this piece that I ghost wrote for Luke when he was at ClusterHQ (Friend D A please): https://www.infoq.com/articles/microservices-revolution

We have a cloud native triangle composed of:

1. Speed of change (I refer to this as agility in that doc but in general would like to avoid the term moving forwards)
2. Resilience (We should be able to change software quickly and not have it break due to internal or external factors)
3. Scale: We'd like to do really big stuff

From those core requirements we can rationalize containerization, microservices and continuous delivery.

From those 'practices' we can talk about specific tools.

Where we fall down is when we start from the tools, but obviously a large part of getting things right (especially microservices I would argue) require pink matter.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
yes

we need to develop a cloud native brand that has values which developers want

- free & open 
- automated pipelines
- faster to make changes
- ..?


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:07 AM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:
I like the model of bringing in end user stories to support the point being made.

The point here clearly seems to be "it's ok to move all your shit to the cloud snd figure it out there" which is an unsurprising position for AWS to take. This is not an opposing point to our mission(TM) though so I will explore this.

Right now I'm mainly concerned that our definition of cloud native is not everyone else's.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 1:34 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
I thought this was worth sharing as an example of the sort of tech-biz guidance that members of the CNCF community could write.  The piece is by someone from AWS and talks about cloud native vs other cloudy things.


--

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Re: [VOTE] gRPC project proposal

Tony Hsu
 

+1 (non-binding)

Regards,
Tony Hsu

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Chris Aniszczyk via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Hey CNCF TOC community, it's time to vote on the gRPC (http://www.grpc.io/) proposal as an inception level project, you can view the proposal below in this email or on GitHub:
https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/23

Please vote +1/0/-1

---

Name of project: gRPC

Description:

Google has been using a single general-purpose RPC infrastructure called Stubby to connect the large number of microservices running within and across our data centers for over a decade. Our internal systems have long embraced the microservice architecture gaining popularity today. Stubby has powered all of Google’s microservices interconnect for over a decade and is the RPC backbone behind every Google service that you use today. Having a uniform, cross-platform RPC infrastructure has allowed for the rollout of fleet-wide improvements in efficiency, security, reliability and behavioral analysis critical to supporting the incredible growth seen in that period.

In March 2015, Google decided to build the next version of Stubby in the open to share their learnings with the industry and collaborate with them to build the next version of Stubby. gRPC is a modern open-source high-performance RPC framework that can run in any environment. It can efficiently connect services in multiple languages in and across data centers with pluggable support for service discovery, load balancing, monitoring, tracing, health checking and authentication. It is also applicable in last mile of distributed computing to connect devices, mobile applications and browsers to backend services.

Sponsor / Advisor from TOC: Brian Grant <briangrant@...>

Unique Identifier: grpc

License: ALv2 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/grpc-io/AWCJlR-MA9k/N-EKJtQPAwAJ)

Maturity Level: Incubating

Source control repositories:

https://github.com/grpc

Initial Committers:

Abhishek Kumar

Louis Ryan

Craig Tiller

Eric Anderson

Jayant Kolhe

Infrastructure requirements: CI and potentially CNCF Community Cluster access

Issue tracker: Per-platform issues are raised on the per-platform repository’s issues area (i.e., https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/issues and https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go/issues)

Mailing lists

Mailing List: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/grpc-io

Gitter: https://gitter.im/grpc/grpc

Website: http://www.grpc.io/

Release methodology and mechanics: Various across platforms

Social media accounts: https://twitter.com/grpcio

Existing sponsorship: Google

Adopters: Cisco, CoreOS, Square, Netflix and more (see http://www.grpc.io/about/)

Statement on alignment with CNCF mission:

Microservices are a critical part of the cloud-native story. An open-source polyglot RPC framework like gRPC helps you define, build, and connect high-performance microservices.

External Dependencies

grpc (c/c++): https://github.com/grpc/grpc

BoringSSL: https://boringssl.googlesource.com/boringssl

Zlib: http://www.zlib.net/zlib_license.html

Gflags: https://github.com/gflags/gflags

Google Benchmark: https://github.com/google/benchmark

Googletest: https://github.com/google/googletest

Nanopb: https://github.com/nanopb/nanopb

Thrift (experimental thrift support): http://thrift.apache.org/

Protobuf (for protobuf support): https://github.com/google/protobuf

grpc-java: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java

Build:

errorprone: "com.google.errorprone:error_prone_annotations:2.0.11",

jsr305: 'com.google.code.findbugs:jsr305:3.0.0',

Compile:

guava: "com.google.guava:guava:${guavaVersion}",

hpack: 'com.twitter:hpack:0.10.1',

oauth_client: 'com.google.auth:google-auth-library-oauth2-http:0.4.0',

google_auth_credentials: 'com.google.auth:google-auth-library-credentials:0.4.0',

okhttp: 'com.squareup.okhttp:okhttp:2.5.0',

okio: 'com.squareup.okio:okio:1.6.0',

census_api: 'com.google.census:census-api:0.2.0',

protobuf: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-java:${protobufVersion}",

protobuf_lite: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-lite:3.0.1",

protoc_lite: "com.google.protobuf:protoc-gen-javalite:3.0.0",

Protobuf_nano: "com.google.protobuf.nano:protobuf-javanano:${protobufNanoVersion}",

protobuf_plugin: 'com.google.protobuf:protobuf-gradle-plugin:0.8.0',

protobuf_util: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-java-util:${protobufVersion}",

netty: 'io.netty:netty-codec-http2:[4.1.6.Final]',

netty_epoll: 'io.netty:netty-transport-native-epoll:4.1.6.Final' + epoll_suffix,

netty_tcnative: 'io.netty:netty-tcnative-boringssl-static:1.1.33.Fork23',

Test dependencies:

junit: 'junit:junit:4.11',

mockito: 'org.mockito:mockito-core:1.9.5',

truth: 'com.google.truth:truth:0.28',

Benchmark:

hdrhistogram: 'org.hdrhistogram:HdrHistogram:2.1.8',

math: 'org.apache.commons:commons-math3:3.6',

Jetty ALPN dependencies:

jetty_alpn_agent: 'org.mortbay.jetty.alpn:jetty-alpn-agent:2.0.3'

grpc-go: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go

https://godoc.org/bytes

https://godoc.org/compress/gzip

https://godoc.org/encoding/binary

https://godoc.org/errors

https://godoc.org/fmt

https://godoc.org/github.com/golang/protobuf/proto

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/context

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/http2

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/trace

https://godoc.org/io

https://godoc.org/io/ioutil

https://godoc.org/math

https://godoc.org/math/rand

https://godoc.org/net

https://godoc.org/net/http

https://godoc.org/os

https://godoc.org/reflect

https://godoc.org/runtime

https://godoc.org/strings

https://godoc.org/sync

https://godoc.org/time

Other Contributors:

grpc (c/c++): https://github.com/grpc/grpc/graphs/contributors

grpc-java: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/graphs/contributors

grpc-go: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go/graphs/contributors

All contributors: 77 total, 49 Google, 29 external contributors

@a11r @adewale @adriancole @apolcyn @arteam @a-veitc @awpr @bogdandrutu @bradfitz @broady @buchgr @carl-mastrangelo @ctiller @danruehle @dapengzhang0 @dgquintas @dklempner @dsymonds @ejona86 @elandau @ericgribkoff @gxb5443 @gyuho @heyitsanthony @hongweiwang @iamqizhao @JakeWharton @jayantkolhe @jboeuf @jcanizales @jhspaybar @johnbcoughlin @jtattermusch @kpayson64 @LisaFC @louiscryan @lukaszx0 @madongfly @makdharma @MakMukhi @markdroth @matthild @matttproud @menghanl @mfcripps @mugurm @murgatroid99 @muxi @mwitkow @nathanielmanistaatgoogle @ncteisen @nicolasnoble @nmittler @nobutaka @nuss-justin @oaktowner @peter-edge @petermattis @philips @rjshade @Sajmani @skyao @soltanmm @soltanmm-google @sreecha @stanley-cheung @stevvooe @tamird @tbetbetbe @thagikura @thinkerou @vjpai @wonderfly @yang-g @yangzhouhan @y-zeng @zhangkun83 @zsurocking

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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Weaver, Nicholas <nicholas.weaver@...>
 

Either works for me

 

 

-- 

 

Nicholas Weaver

Director - Software Engineering

Intel, Datacenter Solutions Group

 

From: <cncf-toc-bounces@...> on behalf of Camille Fournier via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Reply-To: Camille Fournier <skamille@...>
Date: Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 3:05 PM
To: Brian Grant <briangrant@...>
Cc: "cncf-toc@..." <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

 

I'm flexible

 

On Feb 16, 2017 2:58 PM, "Brian Grant via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

These times/days would work for me, thanks.

 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:

TOC members,

 

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

 

TOC community,

 

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

 

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

 

alexis

 

 

 

 

 


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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Camille Fournier
 

I'm flexible

On Feb 16, 2017 2:58 PM, "Brian Grant via cncf-toc" <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
These times/days would work for me, thanks.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Brian Grant
 

These times/days would work for me, thanks.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






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Re: [VOTE] gRPC project proposal

William Morgan
 

+1 (non-binding)

-William

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Chris Aniszczyk via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Hey CNCF TOC community, it's time to vote on the gRPC (http://www.grpc.io/) proposal as an inception level project, you can view the proposal below in this email or on GitHub:
https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/23

Please vote +1/0/-1

---

Name of project: gRPC

Description:

Google has been using a single general-purpose RPC infrastructure called Stubby to connect the large number of microservices running within and across our data centers for over a decade. Our internal systems have long embraced the microservice architecture gaining popularity today. Stubby has powered all of Google’s microservices interconnect for over a decade and is the RPC backbone behind every Google service that you use today. Having a uniform, cross-platform RPC infrastructure has allowed for the rollout of fleet-wide improvements in efficiency, security, reliability and behavioral analysis critical to supporting the incredible growth seen in that period.

In March 2015, Google decided to build the next version of Stubby in the open to share their learnings with the industry and collaborate with them to build the next version of Stubby. gRPC is a modern open-source high-performance RPC framework that can run in any environment. It can efficiently connect services in multiple languages in and across data centers with pluggable support for service discovery, load balancing, monitoring, tracing, health checking and authentication. It is also applicable in last mile of distributed computing to connect devices, mobile applications and browsers to backend services.

Sponsor / Advisor from TOC: Brian Grant <briangrant@...>

Unique Identifier: grpc

License: ALv2 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/grpc-io/AWCJlR-MA9k/N-EKJtQPAwAJ)

Maturity Level: Incubating

Source control repositories:

https://github.com/grpc

Initial Committers:

Abhishek Kumar

Louis Ryan

Craig Tiller

Eric Anderson

Jayant Kolhe

Infrastructure requirements: CI and potentially CNCF Community Cluster access

Issue tracker: Per-platform issues are raised on the per-platform repository’s issues area (i.e., https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/issues and https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go/issues)

Mailing lists

Mailing List: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/grpc-io

Gitter: https://gitter.im/grpc/grpc

Website: http://www.grpc.io/

Release methodology and mechanics: Various across platforms

Social media accounts: https://twitter.com/grpcio

Existing sponsorship: Google

Adopters: Cisco, CoreOS, Square, Netflix and more (see http://www.grpc.io/about/)

Statement on alignment with CNCF mission:

Microservices are a critical part of the cloud-native story. An open-source polyglot RPC framework like gRPC helps you define, build, and connect high-performance microservices.

External Dependencies

grpc (c/c++): https://github.com/grpc/grpc

BoringSSL: https://boringssl.googlesource.com/boringssl

Zlib: http://www.zlib.net/zlib_license.html

Gflags: https://github.com/gflags/gflags

Google Benchmark: https://github.com/google/benchmark

Googletest: https://github.com/google/googletest

Nanopb: https://github.com/nanopb/nanopb

Thrift (experimental thrift support): http://thrift.apache.org/

Protobuf (for protobuf support): https://github.com/google/protobuf

grpc-java: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java

Build:

errorprone: "com.google.errorprone:error_prone_annotations:2.0.11",

jsr305: 'com.google.code.findbugs:jsr305:3.0.0',

Compile:

guava: "com.google.guava:guava:${guavaVersion}",

hpack: 'com.twitter:hpack:0.10.1',

oauth_client: 'com.google.auth:google-auth-library-oauth2-http:0.4.0',

google_auth_credentials: 'com.google.auth:google-auth-library-credentials:0.4.0',

okhttp: 'com.squareup.okhttp:okhttp:2.5.0',

okio: 'com.squareup.okio:okio:1.6.0',

census_api: 'com.google.census:census-api:0.2.0',

protobuf: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-java:${protobufVersion}",

protobuf_lite: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-lite:3.0.1",

protoc_lite: "com.google.protobuf:protoc-gen-javalite:3.0.0",

Protobuf_nano: "com.google.protobuf.nano:protobuf-javanano:${protobufNanoVersion}",

protobuf_plugin: 'com.google.protobuf:protobuf-gradle-plugin:0.8.0',

protobuf_util: "com.google.protobuf:protobuf-java-util:${protobufVersion}",

netty: 'io.netty:netty-codec-http2:[4.1.6.Final]',

netty_epoll: 'io.netty:netty-transport-native-epoll:4.1.6.Final' + epoll_suffix,

netty_tcnative: 'io.netty:netty-tcnative-boringssl-static:1.1.33.Fork23',

Test dependencies:

junit: 'junit:junit:4.11',

mockito: 'org.mockito:mockito-core:1.9.5',

truth: 'com.google.truth:truth:0.28',

Benchmark:

hdrhistogram: 'org.hdrhistogram:HdrHistogram:2.1.8',

math: 'org.apache.commons:commons-math3:3.6',

Jetty ALPN dependencies:

jetty_alpn_agent: 'org.mortbay.jetty.alpn:jetty-alpn-agent:2.0.3'

grpc-go: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go

https://godoc.org/bytes

https://godoc.org/compress/gzip

https://godoc.org/encoding/binary

https://godoc.org/errors

https://godoc.org/fmt

https://godoc.org/github.com/golang/protobuf/proto

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/context

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/http2

https://godoc.org/golang.org/x/net/trace

https://godoc.org/io

https://godoc.org/io/ioutil

https://godoc.org/math

https://godoc.org/math/rand

https://godoc.org/net

https://godoc.org/net/http

https://godoc.org/os

https://godoc.org/reflect

https://godoc.org/runtime

https://godoc.org/strings

https://godoc.org/sync

https://godoc.org/time

Other Contributors:

grpc (c/c++): https://github.com/grpc/grpc/graphs/contributors

grpc-java: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-java/graphs/contributors

grpc-go: https://github.com/grpc/grpc-go/graphs/contributors

All contributors: 77 total, 49 Google, 29 external contributors

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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Christopher LILJENSTOLPE <cdl@...>
 

Greetings,

FWIW: Thursday is problematic for me, Tuesday is better. Would prefer actually earlier in the AM as discussed, 08:00 on the US west coast is problematic (as it locks me at home, and I usually have f2f meetings most morning).

Christopher

On 16 Feb 2017, at 11:49, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc wrote:

TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day. My own
preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice. Please can we
stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot. WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase. The CNCF now has multiple projects, with
more to come in 2017. Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.
And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering
special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via
public channels. Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis
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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Kenneth Owens (kenowens) <kenowens@...>
 

I agree with your priorities and time.



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Date: 2/16/17 11:50 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: [cncf-toc] important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Swarna Podila (Avi Networks) <swarna@...>
 

We have the marketing committee meetings on Tuesdays at the same time, so Thursday would be my preference if we are sticking to the same time.


Best,
Swarna.

On Feb 16, 2017, 11:53 AM -0800, Jonathan Boulle via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...>, wrote:
I am OK with either Tuesday or Thursday and would also have a strong preference to keep the same time.

thanks,
Jonathan

On 16 February 2017 at 11:49, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






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Re: important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

Jonathan Boulle <jonathan.boulle@...>
 

I am OK with either Tuesday or Thursday and would also have a strong preference to keep the same time.

thanks,
Jonathan

On 16 February 2017 at 11:49, Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






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cncf-toc@...
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important updates re TOC meeting scheduling & agenda in future

alexis richardson
 

TOC members,

We talked about moving the fortnightly TOC calls to another day.  My own preference would be Thursday, with Tuesday as second choice.  Please can we stick with the 8am PT / 11am ET / 4pm UK / 5pm DE slot.  WDYT?

TOC community,

We are past the bootstrap phase.  The CNCF now has multiple projects, with more to come in 2017.  Now we need to flesh out details of stuff like CI.  And we need to make sure we are nurturing existing projects well.  

To that end - the TOC is keen to (a) have more 'working' meetings covering special topics, and (b) involve you more in pre-meeting agenda setting via public channels.  Please be outspoken and demand participation.

alexis






Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Mark Coleman <mark@...>
 

+1 I will follow up early next week.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:31 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Joe, I think the marketing committee folks could happily use or repurpose ~CIO facing materials.  

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
This series was essentially a reworking of that.  I tried to update it as I wrote it out.

This stuff was aimed at the ~CIO level so I tried to keep things approachable but real.  Happy to go in to more depth if the discussion would be useful.

Joe

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:27 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Many thanks Joe!  I thought that was a great series.  Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
Hey all,

This is all winding down but I wanted to throw a couple of cents in.  I wrote a series of blog posts looking at this as we launched Heptio:  https://blog.heptio.com/cloud-native-part-1-definition-716ed30e9193#.raih0u3m0

Joe


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Just to wrap up this thread:

1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions.  This is clearly an area that matters to people.

2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair.

alexis


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:


On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
>     <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
>     > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
>     and people
>     > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
>     Agreed.  I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

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Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smccarty@...

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

alexis richardson
 

Joe, I think the marketing committee folks could happily use or repurpose ~CIO facing materials.  


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:28 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
This series was essentially a reworking of that.  I tried to update it as I wrote it out.

This stuff was aimed at the ~CIO level so I tried to keep things approachable but real.  Happy to go in to more depth if the discussion would be useful.

Joe

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:27 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Many thanks Joe!  I thought that was a great series.  Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
Hey all,

This is all winding down but I wanted to throw a couple of cents in.  I wrote a series of blog posts looking at this as we launched Heptio:  https://blog.heptio.com/cloud-native-part-1-definition-716ed30e9193#.raih0u3m0

Joe


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Just to wrap up this thread:

1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions.  This is clearly an area that matters to people.

2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair.

alexis


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:


On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
>     <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
>     > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
>     and people
>     > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
>     Agreed.  I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smccarty@...

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

_______________________________________________
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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

Joe Beda
 

This series was essentially a reworking of that.  I tried to update it as I wrote it out.

This stuff was aimed at the ~CIO level so I tried to keep things approachable but real.  Happy to go in to more depth if the discussion would be useful.

Joe

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:27 AM Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Many thanks Joe!  I thought that was a great series.  Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
Hey all,

This is all winding down but I wanted to throw a couple of cents in.  I wrote a series of blog posts looking at this as we launched Heptio:  https://blog.heptio.com/cloud-native-part-1-definition-716ed30e9193#.raih0u3m0

Joe


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Just to wrap up this thread:

1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions.  This is clearly an area that matters to people.

2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair.

alexis


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:


On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
>     <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
>     > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
>     and people
>     > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
>     Agreed.  I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smccarty@...

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

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Re: Interesting tech marketing from Amazon

alexis richardson
 

Many thanks Joe!  I thought that was a great series.  Do you still have your cloud native white paper from last year, or do you consider that to be dated now?


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:21 AM Joe Beda <joe@...> wrote:
Hey all,

This is all winding down but I wanted to throw a couple of cents in.  I wrote a series of blog posts looking at this as we launched Heptio:  https://blog.heptio.com/cloud-native-part-1-definition-716ed30e9193#.raih0u3m0

Joe


On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:25 AM Alexis Richardson via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:
Just to wrap up this thread:

1) Thanks to everyone for the sparky contributions.  This is clearly an area that matters to people.

2) During the GB & TOC meetings yesterday, it was decided to take steps to unify and write out the CNCF thinking on positioning. The CTA here is: please connect with Mark Coleman, marketing committee chair.

alexis


On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 11:35 AM Scott McCarty via cncf-toc <cncf-toc@...> wrote:


On 02/14/2017 01:41 PM, Mark Coleman via cncf-toc wrote:
> Andy, I like dynamically scalable. That's much better.
Dynamic, or horizontal....
>
> I'd also like to add that what we're proposing here is that people can
> get any /or all/ of those 3 by going cloud native. I think that's an
> important distinction.
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM Dustin Kirkland
> <kirkland@... <mailto:kirkland@...>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Randall via cncf-toc
>     <cncf-toc@... <mailto:cncf-toc@...>> wrote:
>     > I think we should aim for 3 core principles. Any more than that
>     and people
>     > won't be able to repeat as a mantra.
>
>     Agreed.  I can only remember about 3 of the 12-factors :-)
>
> --
> +31 652134960
> CEO www.implicit-explicit.com <http://www.implicit-explicit.com>
> Co-Founder www.softwarecircus.io <http://softwarecircus.io/>
> Marketing Chair www.cncf.io <https://www.cncf.io/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cncf-toc mailing list
> cncf-toc@...
> https://lists.cncf.io/mailman/listinfo/cncf-toc

--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smccarty@...

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

_______________________________________________
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