+1 non-binding!

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 7:05 PM Alena Prokharchyk via lists.cncf.io <aprokharchyk=apple.com@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thank you for raising this question. There are no plans to merge OpenTelemetry and OpenMetrics. There is an effort by OpenTelemetry on adding OpenMetrics support to the collector. Together with the Prometheus and OpenMetrics community, the workgroup was formed, with weekly meetings that move this work forward. Many non-trivial challenges are being discussed and worked on, which brings benefits to all communities. More information and meetings notes can be found here https://github.com/open-telemetry/wg-prometheus, everybody is welcome to participate and ask questions.

-alena

On Jul 7, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Mark Carter <markcartertm@...> wrote:

I am supportive of Openmetrics, but would like to raise a concern.

I am hearing more and more customers who are confused with how Opentelemetry metrics and Openmetrics relate to each other and which one they should be implementing. 

I am concerned that without a plan for CNCF to collapse Openmetrics and Opentelemetry metrics specs to a single spec we may end up in a similar situation to when we had Opentracing and Opencensus as parallel projects which each had a slightly different view on tracing.

Would be great to have guidance to customers on what is CNCF view on the relationship between the two and whether they should or should not merge and why.

Would love to understand how others in the community and TOC view this as I may not have the full picture.

Thank you for your insights,

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:22 PM Alena Prokharchyk via lists.cncf.io <aprokharchyk=apple.com@...> wrote:

+1 binding

-alena

On Jul 7, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

OpenMetrics has applied to move from Sandbox to Incubation.

PR: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/615
Due Diligence (DD) doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BN6ABvfbAMhJthH6xNOY5Lmls3jeE3kFbMgF04BzEKE/edit#heading=h.jidcx4f4xk02


Alena Prokharchyk has called for public comment (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/5913) and has approved a call for a public vote.
 
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

-- 

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

Hi Mark,

Thank you for raising this question. There are no plans to merge OpenTelemetry and OpenMetrics. There is an effort by OpenTelemetry on adding OpenMetrics support to the collector. Together with the Prometheus and OpenMetrics community, the workgroup was formed, with weekly meetings that move this work forward. Many non-trivial challenges are being discussed and worked on, which brings benefits to all communities. More information and meetings notes can be found here https://github.com/open-telemetry/wg-prometheus, everybody is welcome to participate and ask questions.

-alena

On Jul 7, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Mark Carter <markcartertm@...> wrote:

I am supportive of Openmetrics, but would like to raise a concern.

I am hearing more and more customers who are confused with how Opentelemetry metrics and Openmetrics relate to each other and which one they should be implementing. 

I am concerned that without a plan for CNCF to collapse Openmetrics and Opentelemetry metrics specs to a single spec we may end up in a similar situation to when we had Opentracing and Opencensus as parallel projects which each had a slightly different view on tracing.

Would be great to have guidance to customers on what is CNCF view on the relationship between the two and whether they should or should not merge and why.

Would love to understand how others in the community and TOC view this as I may not have the full picture.

Thank you for your insights,

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 1:22 PM Alena Prokharchyk via lists.cncf.io <aprokharchyk=apple.com@...> wrote:

+1 binding

-alena

On Jul 7, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

OpenMetrics has applied to move from Sandbox to Incubation.

PR: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/615
Due Diligence (DD) doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BN6ABvfbAMhJthH6xNOY5Lmls3jeE3kFbMgF04BzEKE/edit#heading=h.jidcx4f4xk02


Alena Prokharchyk has called for public comment (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/5913) and has approved a call for a public vote.
 
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

-- 

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

+1 non-binding

+1 binding

-alena

On Jul 7, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

OpenMetrics has applied to move from Sandbox to Incubation.

PR: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/615
Due Diligence (DD) doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BN6ABvfbAMhJthH6xNOY5Lmls3jeE3kFbMgF04BzEKE/edit#heading=h.jidcx4f4xk02


Alena Prokharchyk has called for public comment (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/5913) and has approved a call for a public vote.
 
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

Eduardo,

Thank you for advocating on behalf of end-users. 

Keeping focus on end-user adoption, experience, and ensuring that components maturity is communicated to the users transparently (http://opentelemetry.io/status/ ), was an essential part of OpenTelemetry Due Diligence. OpenTelemetry is widely adopted by end-user companies at scale, and interviewing them as part of the process was insightful. One of the common requests was to clarify OpenTracing place. OpenTracing is CNCF Incubating project, but it's being merged to OpenTelemtry which exists at Sandbox level. As a part of OpenTelemetry incubation, OpenTracing will be archived from CNCF; here is the deprecation plan: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WgSQ7ZvzO-JHeZi_ECRC7dwIbJYHPoYSXJqS1hLDJgI/edit# . Another common question was around integration with OpenMetrics, and it is already being prioritized by OpenTelemetry team. Together with the Prometheus and OpenMetrics community, the workgroup was formed, with weekly meetings that move this work forward.

It is true that not all the signals are not GA at this point. And it's common for projects to have experimental features. Given OpenTelemetry scope, getting the remaining current features to GA will take some community effort. OpenTelemetry already has an inclusive governing model and diverse committers base. Project moving to Incubation will help with the community growth, existing features hardening and new features/integrations development.

-alena

On Jul 6, 2021, at 3:23 PM, Eduardo Silva <eduardo@...> wrote:

-1 non-binding

Disclaimer: I like OTel project and even in Fluent ecosystem we are working towards integration with it.

My reasons might be controversial but I think OTel is not ready for incubation "yet".

As an end-user and project maintainer, I care about usability. OTel aims to cover Traces, Metrics, and Logs:

• At this point, only Traces are in GA state. Usable.
• Metrics: API and SDKs are "DRAFT" and the collector is experimental. Per my understanding, there is no stable integration with openmetrics or Prometheus ecosystem (for me and "many companies" this is a must). Partial usable.
• Logs: API and SDKs are "DRAFT", the collector is experimental. Not usable.

A project at the incubation stage has to demonstrate maturity and wide adoption, if this is not the case as a foundation (CNCF) we might be sending the wrong message to the end users.

We aim to incubate projects with enough maturity and a minimal level of usability, but this is not the case. This is nothing against OTel but a purely technical opinion. I know we cannot incubate a sub-set of it like Traces only, but this is a complete offering and there are missing pieces of integration and implementation.

I think moving OTel to incubation might help cloud vendors to spread the message, but what about the end users?

The formal doc states:

"TOC acknowledged the gaps in stability and adoption of significant Logging and Metric parts of the OpenTelemetry project. TOC confirmed it should not be a blocker for incubation. "

I disagree, I think this is a blocker, there is so much pressure from vendors..., and rushing things might not be beneficial for the long term.

Why not wait a bit more and do a proper incubation with the minimal pieces on it? I think staying in Sandbox a bit more will be beneficial for the project while rushing it might hurt the ecosystem.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 at 15:48, Bob Killen <killen.bob@...> wrote:

+1 non-binding.

\o/

On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 3:31 PM Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

OpenTelemetry has applied to move from Sandbox to Incubation.

PR: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/619
Due Diligence (DD) doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f4WQR6K84giyOCKjCsqcoVA8YUIzBhWZDVo3CwM1wuk/edit 

Alena Prokharchyk has called for public comment (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/5914) and has approved a call for a public vote.

  
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

-- 

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

-- 

Eduardo Silva

https://fluentbit.io

https://twitter.com/edsiper

OpenTelemetry has applied to move from Sandbox to Incubation.

PR: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/619
Due Diligence (DD) doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f4WQR6K84giyOCKjCsqcoVA8YUIzBhWZDVo3CwM1wuk/edit

Alena Prokharchyk has called for public comment (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/5914) and has approved a call for a public vote.

 
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

+1 nb

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