On Oct 1, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Kevin.Ryan via lists.cncf.io <Kevin.Ryan=arm.com@...> wrote:

+1 !!

 

K

 

 

From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> On Behalf Of Sheng Liang via lists.cncf.io
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 10:44 AM
To: gamanjie@...; aprokharchyk@...
Cc: Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...>; CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] [VOTE] Rook Graduation

 

+1 binding

 

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of "Katie Gamanji via lists.cncf.io" <gamanjie=gmail.com@...>
Reply-To: "gamanjie@..." <gamanjie@...>
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:30 AM
To: "aprokharchyk@..." <aprokharchyk@...>
Cc: Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...>, CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] [VOTE] Rook Graduation

 

+1 binding

  Great addition to the graduated suite of CNCF projects!

 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:35 PM Alena Prokharchyk via lists.cncf.io <aprokharchyk=apple.com@...> wrote:

+1 binding

 

-alena.

 

On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

 

Rook has applied for graduation (see https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/366).

Saad Ali is the TOC sponsor for Rook, has completed DD and has called for a vote.  (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/4846)

Due diligence doc can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1acp9gJ1D_qflHKJBg4gB-nZwZQs87_Dh9uiH4pITc_U/edit?usp=sharing

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

 

-- 

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

+1 binding

+1 binding

 

-alena.

On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Amye Scavarda Perrin <ascavarda@...> wrote:

 

Rook has applied for graduation (see https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/366).

Saad Ali is the TOC sponsor for Rook, has completed DD and has called for a vote.  (https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/4846)

Due diligence doc can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1acp9gJ1D_qflHKJBg4gB-nZwZQs87_Dh9uiH4pITc_U/edit?usp=sharing

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread.

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

 

--

Amye Scavarda Perrin | Program Manager | amye@...

 

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:05 AM, Liz Rice wrote:

I think my wording could be better - the graduation requirement should be
for functional community control of the project roadmap (not merely a plan
for a community-controlled roadmap)

The start of your original email was clear, but the addition of the
word "plan" did make it a bit less so. Thank you for the clarification!

I've taken the liberty to re-format the thread below to inline replies
from earlier messages. I hope that the context doesn't change the
meaning of any quoted text from others.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 18:52, Alexis Richardson <alexis@...> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:48 AM, Bob Wise (AWS) wrote:

What would the mechanism used to be sure that a “plan” for a
community controlled roadmap becomes a reality? At present, holding
graduation as the milestone for that is, imho, one of the most
critical functions the CNCF has.

I (speaking only for myself) would like to understand the function
better. As I understand it, CNCF graduation is a signal that the project
has attained a certain level of "maturity". This is like a "Good
Housekeeping Seal of Approval" that gives users/customers a signal that
they can confidently adopt the software. Maintaining a high quality bar
for graduation is important in building the ongoing strong brand of the
CNCF, which I think plays a key role in supporting beneficial ecosystems
that are part of building and sustaining open-source software.

However, I currently view graduation milestones with the same kind of
skepticism of some engineering "qualification" practices I've seen,
where a product or service is very intensely tested before it is
released using tools and procedures that are not integrated into a
continuous automated testing system. "Qualification" around a major
milestone event gives you a snapshot-in-time view of quality, but modern
software changes more rapidly, so you need to be qualifying
continuously.

So too open-source projects need to change. Communities evolve.
Practices change and adapt. Communities that are not able to change and
evolve are more likely to become dysfunctional. Rather than obsessing
about if a vendor's interest is holding back features, I think you
should investigate how contentious decisions are made, and how disputes
are resolved among stakeholders. The roadmap/features is only one thing
that a development community, or other stakeholders, might disagree
about.

Liz clarified (above) that a proposed concern is to require functional
community control over the roadmap. I would shorten it: require a
functional community (in contrast to a dysfunctional community). I think
you (the CNCF TOC by applying the graduation seal-of-approval) need to
understand what community processes look like in practice, and if is a
healthy dynamic that aligns well with what we've learned so far about
building sustainable open-source software development communities and
commercial ecosystems. That'd be a hard job that I do not envy.

One tool that can help assess how well a community is functioning is a
free-form response template. But more deeply than how is it functioning,
a response template can help trigger, and demonstrate, more mindfulness
in community architecture. One I like is included in Python PIP-8002,
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002/#annex-1-template-questions
I think that a well functioning community is one that has a process that
enables the evolution of its policies and practices over time. I like
that this template asks these questions:

3. How do you like the process?
* Which parts work well?
* Which parts could work better?
* When it doesn't work well, how does it look like?
* What would you change if it were only up to you?
[...]
5. Process evolution
* How did this process evolve historically?
* How can it be changed in the future?

The SC model could generate
* quarterly roadmap
* contributor ladder
* contingency plan

From my perspective, I care very little about any of these things
(though I may not understand what you actually mean). An open-source
license is my ultimate contingency plan. What I'm looking for otherwise
is a strong, welcoming, self-governing community, along with committed
companies participating in a growing commercial ecosystem around the
software.

Projects struggling to get maintainers when the owning entity is
unwilling to give up control to the community seems like a natural
consequence.

This mostly does not happen. Although due to some bad actors, it can.
Mostly projects are a handful of people on a mission, struggling to
make it work, in the face of massive demands and uncertainty.

Yes, there are a number of reasons why a project may not attract
contributors. There are a number of case studies where the overall
sentiment and perception was that an open-source project was too closely
held by a single commercial entity. Sometimes that has practical impacts
in the sustainability of the ecosystem that builds, maintains, and
supports the software.

In my opinion (biased from my experience and perspective), a key case
study in Linux Foundation history is the Xen project. We are fortunate
that the late Lars Kurth documented this case study well, see
http://slideshare.net/xen_com_mgr/lceu13-xen-project-lessons-learned.
When we formed the Xen Project as a Linux Foundation collaborative
project, there were a number of _symptoms_ that indicated that the
community, the project, and the ecosystem around it were trending toward
unhealthy. This was a sustainability concern for many stakeholders,
including me. Forming the Xen Project was only _part_ of addressing the
problem.

People who were most familiar with the Xen community were aware of some
the underlying causes of these symptoms, which were reflected in a
larger "image" problem for the project. Over many years the project and
its community gained a reputation of being difficult to work with,
inwardly focused, and not collaborative with other significant parts of
the open-source software ecosystem on which Xen was built--namely Linux
and QEMU, both of which were extensively modified and maintained as
separate "out of tree / not upstream" development branches for many
years. Some would call the software "forked".

At the time we formed the Xen Project at LF, it already had core
maintainers for multiple organizations, despite having earned a
reputation of being too closely held by Citrix. There are examples of
healthy projects with a small number of people from one organization
with "commit bit" access to the canonical repository, and also examples
of unhealthy projects that have people from multiple organizations with
"commit bit" access. So, I generally agree that the "multi-organization"
criterion is not a good one on its own. It _might_ be a symptom that
there's something else going on that deserves additional investigation.

So, TL;DR? Building a sustainable community is complex. The things that
may be the actual underlying risk factors in sustainability/longevity
may not be obvious in a surface level inspection. A plan is no guarantee
of future success. I think it takes applying mindful, intentional
community-building practices and a willingness to adapt.

--msw

Thanks everyone who came to the TOC call today - with extra thanks to Alexis for initiating the idea in the first place. I've tried to capture the key points:

Problem statement summary: projects that are controlled by a single vendor struggle to meet the current graduation requirement to have maintainers from multiple organizations (for valid reasons such as, they tend to hire the folks who are expert in that project). This multi-organization requirement is intended to address two concerns:
1. longevity of the project (in the event that a vendor is acquired or goes out of business)
2. ensuring that the project roadmap is community controlled, and not only run in the commercial interest of the vendor (we want to avoid feature hold-back)
We recognize that the current multi-org requirement may not be the only (or even necessarily the best) way to address those concerns

Key points

As a graduation requirement, a project should demonstrate a plan for both 1. longevity plan and 2. community-controlled roadmap
As now, "maintainers" from a range of organizations is one way to address these points. A steering committee governance model can be another valid model. As at present, TOC isn't going to mandate any particular governance model (though we can discuss guidance / ideas / recommendations with projects). The TOC remains the final arbiter of what is considered an acceptable governance model.
Steering committees shouldn't be imposed on a project, we believe they will only be successful if they reflect the community surrounding the project (which can include end users and other vendors, and doesn't have to be limited to code committers)
Historically, one reason for projects to struggle to meet the current multi-org maintainer requirement is an inability to attract new maintainers. SIG Contrib Strategy is here to help! As a graduation requirement, a project should have a defined contributor ladder that describes how someone can get involved, and the steps they need to take to reach a leadership role within a project.
As previously discussed we should tidy up the language about "maintainer" to make sure that it's clear that governance models can involve non-coding contributors and community members (e.g. a steering committee could involve end users driving the roadmap)
There is interest in the idea of "badging" for projects that could give end users other information (one example suggested was an indicator of how many commercial vendors offer support for a project). WG Governance are working on a proposal for this.

If this broadly reflects the consensus we can start on wordsmithing the graduation requirement changes in GitHub.

Many thanks everyone for your comments and feedback around these ideas!

Liz