Date   

Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Matt Farina
 

The CNCF site notes:
"The Cloud Native Computing Foundation builds sustainable ecosystems and fosters
a community around a constellation of high-quality projects that orchestrate
containers as part of a microservices architecture."

If we want to foster community around these technologies the end-users need to far outpace the vendors or projects. Successful open source projects often have a community of users where only a small fraction are even publicly engaged in the project.

Meetups aren’t enough to foster cloud native computing in local markets. 

WordCamp, DrupalCamp, and devops days are good examples of local conferences that helped grow the ecosystem.

When it comes to growing ecosystems WordPress is a great example. It powers 31.9% of the web. No matter what we think of the technology the approach around it does have some lessons.

For several years there was a conference in Ohio called CloudDevelop. It was a local/regional conference with most people being local. It was about cloud development, mostly with traditional IaaS. Several hundred people would attend. Many of whom worked for banks, insurance companies, school districts, and other places like these. Most of them wouldn’t travel to the big conferences but what they learned and shared here was valuable and helped expand the use and understanding of cloud. These same people often won’t attend meetups because they have family responsibilities and other things going on in their evenings.


-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com



On Oct 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

Meetups are nice but not at all a substitute for a good end-user focused conference, so let's please not conflate the two things.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 9:25 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:
Thanks for pointing those out. As Dan mentioned, it's on the agenda for 2019 to support some smaller more regional events in new geos.

Currently we encourage folks to start a join an existing meetup, we have over 150+ worldwide:

We have been deliberately reaching out to folks all over the world and the program has been growing every month since its inception (instructions on how to create a meetup here: https://github.com/cncf/meetups)

We also have an ambassador program where we support folks that run meetups or speak at a variety of conferences that we may not be able to get too: https://www.cncf.io/people/ambassadors/

So in short, we're definitely looking to fill in the gaps next year and this is something I suggest you engage with the CNCF Marketing Committee, which is chaired by Mark Coleman: https://www.cncf.io/people/marketing-committee/

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:12 AM Matt Farina <matt@...> wrote:
Has anyone looked at the WordCamp model for local conferences? They are somewhere in between a KubeCon and a meetup.

There are several benefits to this model like:

  • They are local and can be on work time. Meetups cut into evenings and are short. Large conferences require travel. As someone outside a tech bubble city I see the appeal for locals.
  • It builds up local ecosystem of cloud native folks. In particular end-users
  • These local conferences are a great way for people to learn and hone speaking skills so they have the confidence to do a great job at the larger ones
  • It helps build more and more capable end users

They aren’t hard to organize.

-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com





--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719




Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Michael Ducy
 

I agree with the need for coaching of end users. I actually sent an email last night that I thought was to the list, but didn't reply to the group.

One of the problems with soliciting talks from end users is that they are often inexperienced in conferences, presenting, submitting to a CFP, writing a compelling abstract, etc. So while we can ask them to submit more talks, in my experience there needs to be some mentoring done to help these people be successful. 

Bridget Kromhout does an excellent job of this with DevOpsDays Minneapolis. She actively seeks out underrepresented voices and mentors them through the CFP process, slide review, public speaking, etc. 

Maybe this would be a good use of the CNCF Ambassadors or CNCF Speakers Bureau? Leverage those people as mentors for end users to help guide them through the entire process.


On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:27 AM Richard Li <richard@...> wrote:
There seems to be a recognition that more real-world / end user / practitioner talks would be good, because we don't want an echo chamber of ideas.

One suggestion would be to provide more support & coaching for end users who want to submit talks. The vendors & hip cloud companies generally have cultures that are very supportive of speaking at conferences. But many other kinds of companies require more cajoling and support. A lot of times when I talk to an engineer at one of these companies and suggest a talk, the feedback they give me is "No, my stuff really isn't that interesting, and I also have to talk to my manager to get approval, and PR, etc." If we could find ways to support these folks in terms of helping them with their abstract, iterating on a presentation, etc. -- I think we could improve both diversity & quality.


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Camille Fournier
 

Meetups are nice but not at all a substitute for a good end-user focused conference, so let's please not conflate the two things.


On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 9:25 AM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:
Thanks for pointing those out. As Dan mentioned, it's on the agenda for 2019 to support some smaller more regional events in new geos.

Currently we encourage folks to start a join an existing meetup, we have over 150+ worldwide:

We have been deliberately reaching out to folks all over the world and the program has been growing every month since its inception (instructions on how to create a meetup here: https://github.com/cncf/meetups)

We also have an ambassador program where we support folks that run meetups or speak at a variety of conferences that we may not be able to get too: https://www.cncf.io/people/ambassadors/

So in short, we're definitely looking to fill in the gaps next year and this is something I suggest you engage with the CNCF Marketing Committee, which is chaired by Mark Coleman: https://www.cncf.io/people/marketing-committee/

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:12 AM Matt Farina <matt@...> wrote:
Has anyone looked at the WordCamp model for local conferences? They are somewhere in between a KubeCon and a meetup.

There are several benefits to this model like:

  • They are local and can be on work time. Meetups cut into evenings and are short. Large conferences require travel. As someone outside a tech bubble city I see the appeal for locals.
  • It builds up local ecosystem of cloud native folks. In particular end-users
  • These local conferences are a great way for people to learn and hone speaking skills so they have the confidence to do a great job at the larger ones
  • It helps build more and more capable end users

They aren’t hard to organize.

-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com





--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Chris Aniszczyk
 

Thanks for pointing those out. As Dan mentioned, it's on the agenda for 2019 to support some smaller more regional events in new geos.

Currently we encourage folks to start a join an existing meetup, we have over 150+ worldwide:

We have been deliberately reaching out to folks all over the world and the program has been growing every month since its inception (instructions on how to create a meetup here: https://github.com/cncf/meetups)

We also have an ambassador program where we support folks that run meetups or speak at a variety of conferences that we may not be able to get too: https://www.cncf.io/people/ambassadors/

So in short, we're definitely looking to fill in the gaps next year and this is something I suggest you engage with the CNCF Marketing Committee, which is chaired by Mark Coleman: https://www.cncf.io/people/marketing-committee/

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:12 AM Matt Farina <matt@...> wrote:
Has anyone looked at the WordCamp model for local conferences? They are somewhere in between a KubeCon and a meetup.

There are several benefits to this model like:

  • They are local and can be on work time. Meetups cut into evenings and are short. Large conferences require travel. As someone outside a tech bubble city I see the appeal for locals.
  • It builds up local ecosystem of cloud native folks. In particular end-users
  • These local conferences are a great way for people to learn and hone speaking skills so they have the confidence to do a great job at the larger ones
  • It helps build more and more capable end users

They aren’t hard to organize.

-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com





--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Matt Farina
 

Has anyone looked at the WordCamp model for local conferences? They are somewhere in between a KubeCon and a meetup.

There are several benefits to this model like:

  • They are local and can be on work time. Meetups cut into evenings and are short. Large conferences require travel. As someone outside a tech bubble city I see the appeal for locals.
  • It builds up local ecosystem of cloud native folks. In particular end-users
  • These local conferences are a great way for people to learn and hone speaking skills so they have the confidence to do a great job at the larger ones
  • It helps build more and more capable end users

They aren’t hard to organize.

-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com




Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

chung@...
 

It's great to hear there's support for more end user talks, since I joined the CNCF to increase end user engagement and satisfaction.

End user talks will be one of my key metrics, and I'm very keen to provide encouragement and feedback for end users and less experienced speakers. I already do this for the Cloud Native London meetup to ensure better diversity of speakers and talk topics.

Personally I like William's suggestion of a two-phase review.

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:34 PM Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:
+1 end users often struggle to make their talks as appealing as the “real ones”. Coaching here will help.
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 11:52, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
+1, great idea


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018, 11:27 Richard Li, <richard@...> wrote:
There seems to be a recognition that more real-world / end user / practitioner talks would be good, because we don't want an echo chamber of ideas.

One suggestion would be to provide more support & coaching for end users who want to submit talks. The vendors & hip cloud companies generally have cultures that are very supportive of speaking at conferences. But many other kinds of companies require more cajoling and support. A lot of times when I talk to an engineer at one of these companies and suggest a talk, the feedback they give me is "No, my stuff really isn't that interesting, and I also have to talk to my manager to get approval, and PR, etc." If we could find ways to support these folks in terms of helping them with their abstract, iterating on a presentation, etc. -- I think we could improve both diversity & quality.

--
+31 652134960
Marketing Chair www.cncf.io


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Mark Coleman <mark@...>
 

+1 end users often struggle to make their talks as appealing as the “real ones”. Coaching here will help.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 11:52, alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
+1, great idea


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018, 11:27 Richard Li, <richard@...> wrote:
There seems to be a recognition that more real-world / end user / practitioner talks would be good, because we don't want an echo chamber of ideas.

One suggestion would be to provide more support & coaching for end users who want to submit talks. The vendors & hip cloud companies generally have cultures that are very supportive of speaking at conferences. But many other kinds of companies require more cajoling and support. A lot of times when I talk to an engineer at one of these companies and suggest a talk, the feedback they give me is "No, my stuff really isn't that interesting, and I also have to talk to my manager to get approval, and PR, etc." If we could find ways to support these folks in terms of helping them with their abstract, iterating on a presentation, etc. -- I think we could improve both diversity & quality.

--
+31 652134960
Marketing Chair www.cncf.io


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

alexis richardson
 

+1, great idea


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018, 11:27 Richard Li, <richard@...> wrote:
There seems to be a recognition that more real-world / end user / practitioner talks would be good, because we don't want an echo chamber of ideas.

One suggestion would be to provide more support & coaching for end users who want to submit talks. The vendors & hip cloud companies generally have cultures that are very supportive of speaking at conferences. But many other kinds of companies require more cajoling and support. A lot of times when I talk to an engineer at one of these companies and suggest a talk, the feedback they give me is "No, my stuff really isn't that interesting, and I also have to talk to my manager to get approval, and PR, etc." If we could find ways to support these folks in terms of helping them with their abstract, iterating on a presentation, etc. -- I think we could improve both diversity & quality.


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Richard Li
 

There seems to be a recognition that more real-world / end user / practitioner talks would be good, because we don't want an echo chamber of ideas.

One suggestion would be to provide more support & coaching for end users who want to submit talks. The vendors & hip cloud companies generally have cultures that are very supportive of speaking at conferences. But many other kinds of companies require more cajoling and support. A lot of times when I talk to an engineer at one of these companies and suggest a talk, the feedback they give me is "No, my stuff really isn't that interesting, and I also have to talk to my manager to get approval, and PR, etc." If we could find ways to support these folks in terms of helping them with their abstract, iterating on a presentation, etc. -- I think we could improve both diversity & quality.


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Dan Kohn <dan@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 11:59 PM Chiradeep Vittal <chiradeep.vittal@...> wrote:

Is it feasible at all to hold more Kubecons? Minikubecons? The mini version would be more like a day-long meetup, I guess, but with a little bit of backing from CNCF (marketing). Wouldn’t expect people to fly over from all over the world to attend though.

This is like autoscaling for conferences. For emerging /exciting areas it is natural that there are a lot of submissions, and for things to change a lot. By the time a conference presentation actually happens, a lot of information could be obsolete / uninteresting. Mini-conferences would have a shorter time between CFP and conference day. The CFP acceptance rate, I expect, would be closer to 100%.


In a few weeks, we'll be sharing plans for hosting single day events, especially in parts of the world with a lot of interest in cloud native but without easy access to KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America, Europe, and China. The first couple will be in Bangalore and Seoul.

However, I don't expect them to satiate the demand for KubeCon presentations at all. They will be single day, single track events with most of the content at an introductory level and a small amount of intermediate content. Most KubeCon content is Intermediate or higher: https://kccna18.sched.com/company/Intermediate

I think the best alternative to presenting at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon (besides other conferences) is the network of CNCF Meetup groups around the world: https://meetups.cncf.io

We're looking at a facility in Bangalore that can hold over 1000 people. We'll run a CFP process for the talks and I expect very high demand for the small number of speaking slots.
--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com 


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

alexis richardson
 

I'm strongly in favour of additional, community level mini conferences, at the scale of promcon for example.  Having those could justify some rules aimed at improving the mega conferences.



On Thu, 4 Oct 2018, 06:36 Mark Coleman, <mark@...> wrote:
I agree that asking for more talk information up front would be useful.

I also agree that we should be considering what is important to a conference attendee.

Chiradeep, there are plans to run one day events but I don’t have more information to hand.

Perhaps Dan can help?
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 04:59, Chiradeep Vittal <chiradeep.vittal@...> wrote:

Is it feasible at all to hold more Kubecons? Minikubecons? The mini version would be more like a day-long meetup, I guess, but with a little bit of backing from CNCF (marketing). Wouldn’t expect people to fly over from all over the world to attend though.

This is like autoscaling for conferences. For emerging /exciting areas it is natural that there are a lot of submissions, and for things to change a lot. By the time a conference presentation actually happens, a lot of information could be obsolete / uninteresting. Mini-conferences would have a shorter time between CFP and conference day. The CFP acceptance rate, I expect, would be closer to 100%.

 

--

Chiradeep Vittal

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Bob Wise <bob@...>
Date: Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 8:23 AM
To: "alex@..." <alex@...>
Cc: "nchase@..." <nchase@...>, "quinton.hoole@..." <quinton.hoole@...>, "bryan@..." <bryan@...>, "anthony@..." <anthony@...>, CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon

 

The point of double-blind is not to increase diversity, it is to improve quality.

Turns out bias leads people to select based on things other than the quality of the work.

 

 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Alex Clemmer <alex@...> wrote:

I think it's important that tactical measures (e.g., double-blind, vendor talk limits, etc.) should be in the service of a general goal. IMO the first responsibility of conference organizers is to the conference attendees. A primary goal might look lie: make an engaging and useful conference, that fosters community development of cloud native software.

There is always a push among talk proposers to have a completely "objective" admissions process, but (1) an "objective" admissions process may well make for a worse conference, and (2) it is impossible for the committee to not impose some editorial view in the talks they select. So you may as well embrace it.

To the issue at hand: IME the best reason to have double-blind reviews is that it increases the amount of diversity, both in submissions and in balance of accepts. I reckon this is for much the same way that blind auditions helped diversity in orchestras.

What I very seriously doubt is that double-blind reviews will have the affect Bryan seems to think it will. In practice, most talks proposed about interesting technology (linkerd/Istio/Envoy, say) will be inextricably linked to the vendors that produce the technology, and the authoritative credibility they carry. Likewise most "customer success" talks will be linked to the customer itself. It will be harder on balance to judge talks on their merit without some idea of the "believability" of these authors. This is in contrast to scientific papers, where the submission process is geared towards papers that explore some idea abstract the people involved, excepting talks from industry, which will carry more weight because they have operational expertise, even though they are therefore less anonymous.

There may be other reasons to do double-blind review, but personally I can't think of them.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:20 PM Nick Chase <nchase@...> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:35 PM Quinton Hoole <quinton.hoole@...> wrote:

I also think that it would be super-useful for submission rejection notices to be accompanied by a few brief reviewer notes (e.g. “too much marketing pitch”, “not open source”, “previously presented”, “duplicated submission”, “off topic" etc) to help submitters to improve their chances in future (and perhaps also clarify any possible misperceptions by reviewers, as the submissions are by necessity brief). As just one illustrative data point, all 10 of my submissions to KubeCon China and US were rejected, and none of the rejections seem explainable by any of the “how to improve the odds” guidelines.  So I have no idea what to do differently in future.

 

I recognize that it's not always that cut-and-dried, BTW; I've been on the selection team for several conferences and sometimes it's just a matter of "there were 10 slots and you ranked #11".  But not always.   

--
+31 652134960
Marketing Chair www.cncf.io


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Mark Coleman <mark@...>
 

I agree that asking for more talk information up front would be useful.

I also agree that we should be considering what is important to a conference attendee.

Chiradeep, there are plans to run one day events but I don’t have more information to hand.

Perhaps Dan can help?

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 04:59, Chiradeep Vittal <chiradeep.vittal@...> wrote:

Is it feasible at all to hold more Kubecons? Minikubecons? The mini version would be more like a day-long meetup, I guess, but with a little bit of backing from CNCF (marketing). Wouldn’t expect people to fly over from all over the world to attend though.

This is like autoscaling for conferences. For emerging /exciting areas it is natural that there are a lot of submissions, and for things to change a lot. By the time a conference presentation actually happens, a lot of information could be obsolete / uninteresting. Mini-conferences would have a shorter time between CFP and conference day. The CFP acceptance rate, I expect, would be closer to 100%.

 

--

Chiradeep Vittal

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Bob Wise <bob@...>
Date: Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 8:23 AM
To: "alex@..." <alex@...>
Cc: "nchase@..." <nchase@...>, "quinton.hoole@..." <quinton.hoole@...>, "bryan@..." <bryan@...>, "anthony@..." <anthony@...>, CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon

 

The point of double-blind is not to increase diversity, it is to improve quality.

Turns out bias leads people to select based on things other than the quality of the work.

 

 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Alex Clemmer <alex@...> wrote:

I think it's important that tactical measures (e.g., double-blind, vendor talk limits, etc.) should be in the service of a general goal. IMO the first responsibility of conference organizers is to the conference attendees. A primary goal might look lie: make an engaging and useful conference, that fosters community development of cloud native software.

There is always a push among talk proposers to have a completely "objective" admissions process, but (1) an "objective" admissions process may well make for a worse conference, and (2) it is impossible for the committee to not impose some editorial view in the talks they select. So you may as well embrace it.

To the issue at hand: IME the best reason to have double-blind reviews is that it increases the amount of diversity, both in submissions and in balance of accepts. I reckon this is for much the same way that blind auditions helped diversity in orchestras.

What I very seriously doubt is that double-blind reviews will have the affect Bryan seems to think it will. In practice, most talks proposed about interesting technology (linkerd/Istio/Envoy, say) will be inextricably linked to the vendors that produce the technology, and the authoritative credibility they carry. Likewise most "customer success" talks will be linked to the customer itself. It will be harder on balance to judge talks on their merit without some idea of the "believability" of these authors. This is in contrast to scientific papers, where the submission process is geared towards papers that explore some idea abstract the people involved, excepting talks from industry, which will carry more weight because they have operational expertise, even though they are therefore less anonymous.

There may be other reasons to do double-blind review, but personally I can't think of them.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:20 PM Nick Chase <nchase@...> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:35 PM Quinton Hoole <quinton.hoole@...> wrote:

I also think that it would be super-useful for submission rejection notices to be accompanied by a few brief reviewer notes (e.g. “too much marketing pitch”, “not open source”, “previously presented”, “duplicated submission”, “off topic" etc) to help submitters to improve their chances in future (and perhaps also clarify any possible misperceptions by reviewers, as the submissions are by necessity brief). As just one illustrative data point, all 10 of my submissions to KubeCon China and US were rejected, and none of the rejections seem explainable by any of the “how to improve the odds” guidelines.  So I have no idea what to do differently in future.

 

I recognize that it's not always that cut-and-dried, BTW; I've been on the selection team for several conferences and sometimes it's just a matter of "there were 10 slots and you ranked #11".  But not always.   

--
+31 652134960
Marketing Chair www.cncf.io


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Chiradeep Vittal <chiradeep.vittal@...>
 

Is it feasible at all to hold more Kubecons? Minikubecons? The mini version would be more like a day-long meetup, I guess, but with a little bit of backing from CNCF (marketing). Wouldn’t expect people to fly over from all over the world to attend though.

This is like autoscaling for conferences. For emerging /exciting areas it is natural that there are a lot of submissions, and for things to change a lot. By the time a conference presentation actually happens, a lot of information could be obsolete / uninteresting. Mini-conferences would have a shorter time between CFP and conference day. The CFP acceptance rate, I expect, would be closer to 100%.

 

--

Chiradeep Vittal

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Bob Wise <bob@...>
Date: Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 8:23 AM
To: "alex@..." <alex@...>
Cc: "nchase@..." <nchase@...>, "quinton.hoole@..." <quinton.hoole@...>, "bryan@..." <bryan@...>, "anthony@..." <anthony@...>, CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon

 

The point of double-blind is not to increase diversity, it is to improve quality.

Turns out bias leads people to select based on things other than the quality of the work.

 

 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Alex Clemmer <alex@...> wrote:

I think it's important that tactical measures (e.g., double-blind, vendor talk limits, etc.) should be in the service of a general goal. IMO the first responsibility of conference organizers is to the conference attendees. A primary goal might look lie: make an engaging and useful conference, that fosters community development of cloud native software.

There is always a push among talk proposers to have a completely "objective" admissions process, but (1) an "objective" admissions process may well make for a worse conference, and (2) it is impossible for the committee to not impose some editorial view in the talks they select. So you may as well embrace it.

To the issue at hand: IME the best reason to have double-blind reviews is that it increases the amount of diversity, both in submissions and in balance of accepts. I reckon this is for much the same way that blind auditions helped diversity in orchestras.

What I very seriously doubt is that double-blind reviews will have the affect Bryan seems to think it will. In practice, most talks proposed about interesting technology (linkerd/Istio/Envoy, say) will be inextricably linked to the vendors that produce the technology, and the authoritative credibility they carry. Likewise most "customer success" talks will be linked to the customer itself. It will be harder on balance to judge talks on their merit without some idea of the "believability" of these authors. This is in contrast to scientific papers, where the submission process is geared towards papers that explore some idea abstract the people involved, excepting talks from industry, which will carry more weight because they have operational expertise, even though they are therefore less anonymous.

There may be other reasons to do double-blind review, but personally I can't think of them.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:20 PM Nick Chase <nchase@...> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:35 PM Quinton Hoole <quinton.hoole@...> wrote:

I also think that it would be super-useful for submission rejection notices to be accompanied by a few brief reviewer notes (e.g. “too much marketing pitch”, “not open source”, “previously presented”, “duplicated submission”, “off topic" etc) to help submitters to improve their chances in future (and perhaps also clarify any possible misperceptions by reviewers, as the submissions are by necessity brief). As just one illustrative data point, all 10 of my submissions to KubeCon China and US were rejected, and none of the rejections seem explainable by any of the “how to improve the odds” guidelines.  So I have no idea what to do differently in future.

 

I recognize that it's not always that cut-and-dried, BTW; I've been on the selection team for several conferences and sometimes it's just a matter of "there were 10 slots and you ranked #11".  But not always.   


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Yuan Chen <yuan.chen@...>
 

I second that. As someone who has had a long history with CS academic conferences (as both a reviewer and author), I was really surprised by the fact that we only needed to write a very short abstract (up to 900 characters)! I was wondering how a reviewer could make a decision based on such limited information.

 

Also, as the effort required to write a proposal was not that much, there were a larger number of submissions. To me, the quality or outcome (those accepted proposals) should matter most, not the number of submissions.

 

Interestingly, we were asked to provide a lot of information about our background and experience. I couldn’t help thinking the reviewers care more about an author’s background and experience than the submission itself.

 

Would it be helpful to try something like an extended abstract, which can provide more information and technical content? We can use a template (e.g., problem statement, solution and results), maybe 1-2 pages.

 

Also, I would like to have received feedbacks on my submissions.

 

Thanks,

 

-Yuan

 

Principal Architect, Infrastructure

JD.com Silicon Valley R&D Center

 

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Bob Wise <bob@...>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 at 7:50 PM
To: "alena@..." <alena@...>
Cc: Dan Kohn <dan@...>, "skamille@..." <skamille@...>, Brian Grant <briangrant@...>, "bryan@..." <bryan@...>, CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon

 

Since the number of submissions is really high, might be ok to require a more in-depth submission to provide enough context for the double-blind assessment. Fewer but better submissions seems like it would be a fine tradeoff.

 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Alena Prokharchyk <alena@...> wrote:

I'm not sure going with double blind for Kubecon talk submissions is a good idea. In academic conferences, the paper itself is a good enough justification as it includes all the information needed to make a fair judgement. Kubecon submissions are short abstracts, and can't be judged the same way. Speaker's presentation skills, the projects he/she is involved in, the presentations given in the past should be taken into consideration. Unless we ask to include slides and transcript of the presentation as a part of the submission, there is not enough basis to do double blind voting.

 

A disclaimer: some of my talks were accepted to kubecon, some were rejected. As a speaker (and I don't consider myself to be a particularly good one) I'd really like to know the reasons behind both decisions.

 


From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:29:27 PM
To: Camille Fournier
Cc: Brian Grant; Bryan Cantrell; cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon

 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:14 PM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:

What percentage of end user talks were accepted?

 

27.8% of talks are from end users.

 

--

Dan Kohn <dan@...>

Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io

+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Bob Wise
 

The point of double-blind is not to increase diversity, it is to improve quality.
Turns out bias leads people to select based on things other than the quality of the work.


On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Alex Clemmer <alex@...> wrote:
I think it's important that tactical measures (e.g., double-blind, vendor talk limits, etc.) should be in the service of a general goal. IMO the first responsibility of conference organizers is to the conference attendees. A primary goal might look lie: make an engaging and useful conference, that fosters community development of cloud native software.

There is always a push among talk proposers to have a completely "objective" admissions process, but (1) an "objective" admissions process may well make for a worse conference, and (2) it is impossible for the committee to not impose some editorial view in the talks they select. So you may as well embrace it.

To the issue at hand: IME the best reason to have double-blind reviews is that it increases the amount of diversity, both in submissions and in balance of accepts. I reckon this is for much the same way that blind auditions helped diversity in orchestras.

What I very seriously doubt is that double-blind reviews will have the affect Bryan seems to think it will. In practice, most talks proposed about interesting technology (linkerd/Istio/Envoy, say) will be inextricably linked to the vendors that produce the technology, and the authoritative credibility they carry. Likewise most "customer success" talks will be linked to the customer itself. It will be harder on balance to judge talks on their merit without some idea of the "believability" of these authors. This is in contrast to scientific papers, where the submission process is geared towards papers that explore some idea abstract the people involved, excepting talks from industry, which will carry more weight because they have operational expertise, even though they are therefore less anonymous.

There may be other reasons to do double-blind review, but personally I can't think of them.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:20 PM Nick Chase <nchase@...> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 4:35 PM Quinton Hoole <quinton.hoole@...> wrote:
I also think that it would be super-useful for submission rejection notices to be accompanied by a few brief reviewer notes (e.g. “too much marketing pitch”, “not open source”, “previously presented”, “duplicated submission”, “off topic" etc) to help submitters to improve their chances in future (and perhaps also clarify any possible misperceptions by reviewers, as the submissions are by necessity brief). As just one illustrative data point, all 10 of my submissions to KubeCon China and US were rejected, and none of the rejections seem explainable by any of the “how to improve the odds” guidelines.  So I have no idea what to do differently in future.

I recognize that it's not always that cut-and-dried, BTW; I've been on the selection team for several conferences and sometimes it's just a matter of "there were 10 slots and you ranked #11".  But not always.   


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Bob Wise
 

Since the number of submissions is really high, might be ok to require a more in-depth submission to provide enough context for the double-blind assessment. Fewer but better submissions seems like it would be a fine tradeoff.


On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 5:36 PM Alena Prokharchyk <alena@...> wrote:

I'm not sure going with double blind for Kubecon talk submissions is a good idea. In academic conferences, the paper itself is a good enough justification as it includes all the information needed to make a fair judgement. Kubecon submissions are short abstracts, and can't be judged the same way. Speaker's presentation skills, the projects he/she is involved in, the presentations given in the past should be taken into consideration. Unless we ask to include slides and transcript of the presentation as a part of the submission, there is not enough basis to do double blind voting.

A disclaimer: some of my talks were accepted to kubecon, some were rejected. As a speaker (and I don't consider myself to be a particularly good one) I'd really like to know the reasons behind both decisions.


From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:29:27 PM
To: Camille Fournier
Cc: Brian Grant; Bryan Cantrell; cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon
 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:14 PM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:
What percentage of end user talks were accepted?

27.8% of talks are from end users.

--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Matt Farina
 


Quinton Hoole wrote:
> I also think that it would be super-useful for submission rejection notices
> to be accompanied by a few brief reviewer notes (e.g. “too much
> marketing pitch”, “not open source”, “previously presented”, “duplicated
> submission”, “off topic" etc) to help submitters to improve their chances
> in future (and perhaps also clarify any possible misperceptions by
> reviewers, as the submissions are by necessity brief).

I want to echo what Quinton suggested. I’ve been a reviewer at a number of conferences and this is something some conferences do and I’ve had to do. I’ve been on the recieving end of this feedback and it’s been useful.

Alex Clemmer wrote:
>  IMO the first responsibility of conference organizers is to the conference
> attendees.

Who are the types of people we want to be attendees and what is it they need and want? Have we collected this information anywhere?

Brian Grant wrote:
> There are vastly more talks submitted by project contributors than by
> end users. Perhaps that should be an ask to our end-user community —
> submit more talks.

What does this say about our community? Are there not enough end users? Are they there but not engaged enough?



-- 
Matt Farina
mattfarina.com




Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Justin Cappos
 

I agree with Alena that single blind may make the most sense for Kubecon.  Academic venues that use double blind usually do so (in part) to try to cut down on nepotism, etc.  The acknowledged loss is that sometimes knowing who the presenter is can add information about the value of the work.

I do think that single blind probably makes more sense in this case, because I'm presuming that it isn't that PC members from vendor A are accepting all vendor A talks.  (In academic conferences, this would be a conflict regardless so people at the same institution cannot review each others' submissions.)

Justin

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:36 PM Alena Prokharchyk <alena@...> wrote:

I'm not sure going with double blind for Kubecon talk submissions is a good idea. In academic conferences, the paper itself is a good enough justification as it includes all the information needed to make a fair judgement. Kubecon submissions are short abstracts, and can't be judged the same way. Speaker's presentation skills, the projects he/she is involved in, the presentations given in the past should be taken into consideration. Unless we ask to include slides and transcript of the presentation as a part of the submission, there is not enough basis to do double blind voting.

A disclaimer: some of my talks were accepted to kubecon, some were rejected. As a speaker (and I don't consider myself to be a particularly good one) I'd really like to know the reasons behind both decisions.


From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:29:27 PM
To: Camille Fournier
Cc: Brian Grant; Bryan Cantrell; cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon
 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:14 PM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:
What percentage of end user talks were accepted?

27.8% of talks are from end users.

--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Camille Fournier
 

No I mean, of the total number of submissions made by end users, what percentage were accepted? Given that the overall rate was 13%


On Wed, Oct 3, 2018, 8:29 PM Dan Kohn <dan@...> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:14 PM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:
What percentage of end user talks were accepted?

27.8% of talks are from end users.

--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Thoughts on KubeCon

Alena Prokharchyk
 

I'm not sure going with double blind for Kubecon talk submissions is a good idea. In academic conferences, the paper itself is a good enough justification as it includes all the information needed to make a fair judgement. Kubecon submissions are short abstracts, and can't be judged the same way. Speaker's presentation skills, the projects he/she is involved in, the presentations given in the past should be taken into consideration. Unless we ask to include slides and transcript of the presentation as a part of the submission, there is not enough basis to do double blind voting.

A disclaimer: some of my talks were accepted to kubecon, some were rejected. As a speaker (and I don't consider myself to be a particularly good one) I'd really like to know the reasons behind both decisions.


From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:29:27 PM
To: Camille Fournier
Cc: Brian Grant; Bryan Cantrell; cncf-toc@...
Subject: Re: [cncf-toc] Thoughts on KubeCon
 
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:14 PM Camille Fournier <skamille@...> wrote:
What percentage of end user talks were accepted?

27.8% of talks are from end users.

--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com

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