Date   

Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Ken Owens
 

+1 binding

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Quinton Hoole <quinton.hoole@...> wrote:
+1 (binding)

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@linuxfoundation.org>
Date: Monday, May 21, 2018 at 06:48
To: CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: [cncf-toc] [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719





Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Yong Tang <ytang@...>
 

+1 non-binding




From: cncf-toc@... <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 6:48 AM
To: CNCF TOC
Subject: [cncf-toc] [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition
 
The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719




Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Quinton Hoole
 

+1 (binding)

From: <cncf-toc@...> on behalf of Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...>
Date: Monday, May 21, 2018 at 06:48
To: CNCF TOC <cncf-toc@...>
Subject: [cncf-toc] [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719




Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Ruben Orduz <ruben@...>
 

I'm a -1 (non-binding) on this.

This is too fluffy and hand-wavy to be called a definition. This reads more like a mission statement than a definition: it actually doesn't define anything.

Best,
Ruben

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Chris Short via Lists.Cncf.Io <chris=chrisshort.net@...> wrote:
+1 (non-binding)


On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719






Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Chris Short
 

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:
The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719





Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

John Belamaric
 

+1 non-binding

On May 21, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719



Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Sun, Ning
 

+1 non-binding.
Ning

On May 21, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Richard Hartmann <richih@...> wrote:

+1 non-binding


Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Randy Abernethy
 

+1 nb

On 2018-05-21 06:48, Chris Aniszczyk wrote:
The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!
--
Randy Abernethy
Managing Partner
RX-M, LLC
randy.abernethy@...
o 415-800-2922
c 415-624-6447


Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

JJ
 

+1 (non-binding).


On Mon, May 21, 2018, 7:29 AM Bassam Tabbara <bassam@...> wrote:
+1 non-binding


Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Bassam Tabbara
 

+1 non-binding


Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Richard Hartmann
 

+1 non-binding
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 3:48 PM Chris Aniszczyk <
caniszczyk@...> wrote:

The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:
"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.
These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.
The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."
Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117
Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!
--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719


Re: [VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Ihor Dvoretskyi
 

+1 (non-binding).

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 4:48 PM Chris Aniszczyk <caniszczyk@...> wrote:
The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719




[VOTE] Cloud Native Definition

Chris Aniszczyk
 

The TOC worked with the community (i.e.,
https://lists.cncf.io/g/cncf-toc/message/2004) to craft an updated
cloud native definition:

"Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run
scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public,
private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices,
immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify this
approach.

These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient,
manageable, and observable. Combined with robust automation, they
allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably
with minimal toil.

The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this
paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source,
vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to
make these innovations accessible for everyone."

Please vote (+1/0/-1) by replying to this thread; the full definition
is located here: https://github.com/cncf/toc/pull/117

Remember that the TOC has binding votes only, but we do appreciate
non-binding votes from the community as a sign of support!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719


Re: Cloud Native definition last call

Richard Hartmann
 

Nitpick: s/the approach/this approach/


Else, it looks good.

Sent by mobile; please excuse my brevity.


On Sat, May 19, 2018, 08:08 Brian Grant via Lists.Cncf.Io <briangrant=google.com@...> wrote:


We went through many iterations, but I'm pretty happy where it has landed:

---

Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public, private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices, immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify the approach.


These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient, manageable, and observable. Coupled with robust automation, they allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably with minimal toil.


The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone.

---

Thanks to everyone who helped and provided feedback.

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:52 AM Dan Kohn <dan@...> wrote:
The TOC is aiming to create and approve a short definition of cloud native. This is last call on making edits to the proposed text:

Cloud-native technologies, such as containers and microservices, empower organizations to develop and deploy scalable, agile applications and services in highly dynamic, distributed environments. Such systems are designed to be resilient, elastic, and loosely coupled via manageable abstractions and declarative APIs. This enables effective, reliable automation that minimizes toil, and results in processes and workflows that allow operators to make impactful changes safely and take full advantage of these environments.
 
The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of these techniques by fostering an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects that align with these objectives, and which are portable to public, private, and hybrid clouds. We democratize the state-of-the-art patterns and practices to ensure innovations remain open and accessible for everyone. 

If you have proposed changes, please make them via this Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9Ks3UvUV8sZj4ribAMwmq0MZwi1CwnOZWGtrCufOuk/edit

Also note that this month's edition of the Cloud Native Trail Map includes (a slightly older iteration of) the definition: https://github.com/cncf/landscape#trail-map
--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Cloud Native definition last call

Erin Boyd
 

I think it's perfect.
Erin

On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:08 AM Brian Grant via Lists.Cncf.Io <briangrant=google.com@...> wrote:


We went through many iterations, but I'm pretty happy where it has landed:

---

Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public, private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices, immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify the approach.


These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient, manageable, and observable. Coupled with robust automation, they allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably with minimal toil.


The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone.

---

Thanks to everyone who helped and provided feedback.

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:52 AM Dan Kohn <dan@...> wrote:
The TOC is aiming to create and approve a short definition of cloud native. This is last call on making edits to the proposed text:

Cloud-native technologies, such as containers and microservices, empower organizations to develop and deploy scalable, agile applications and services in highly dynamic, distributed environments. Such systems are designed to be resilient, elastic, and loosely coupled via manageable abstractions and declarative APIs. This enables effective, reliable automation that minimizes toil, and results in processes and workflows that allow operators to make impactful changes safely and take full advantage of these environments.
 
The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of these techniques by fostering an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects that align with these objectives, and which are portable to public, private, and hybrid clouds. We democratize the state-of-the-art patterns and practices to ensure innovations remain open and accessible for everyone. 

If you have proposed changes, please make them via this Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9Ks3UvUV8sZj4ribAMwmq0MZwi1CwnOZWGtrCufOuk/edit

Also note that this month's edition of the Cloud Native Trail Map includes (a slightly older iteration of) the definition: https://github.com/cncf/landscape#trail-map
--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


Re: Cloud Native definition last call

Brian Grant
 


We went through many iterations, but I'm pretty happy where it has landed:

---

Cloud native technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in modern, dynamic environments such as public, private, and hybrid clouds. Containers, service meshes, microservices, immutable infrastructure, and declarative APIs exemplify the approach.


These techniques enable loosely coupled systems that are resilient, manageable, and observable. Coupled with robust automation, they allow engineers to make high-impact changes frequently and predictably with minimal toil.


The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of this paradigm by fostering and sustaining an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects. We democratize state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone.

---

Thanks to everyone who helped and provided feedback.

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:52 AM Dan Kohn <dan@...> wrote:
The TOC is aiming to create and approve a short definition of cloud native. This is last call on making edits to the proposed text:

Cloud-native technologies, such as containers and microservices, empower organizations to develop and deploy scalable, agile applications and services in highly dynamic, distributed environments. Such systems are designed to be resilient, elastic, and loosely coupled via manageable abstractions and declarative APIs. This enables effective, reliable automation that minimizes toil, and results in processes and workflows that allow operators to make impactful changes safely and take full advantage of these environments.
 
The Cloud Native Computing Foundation seeks to drive adoption of these techniques by fostering an ecosystem of open source, vendor-neutral projects that align with these objectives, and which are portable to public, private, and hybrid clouds. We democratize the state-of-the-art patterns and practices to ensure innovations remain open and accessible for everyone. 

If you have proposed changes, please make them via this Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d9Ks3UvUV8sZj4ribAMwmq0MZwi1CwnOZWGtrCufOuk/edit

Also note that this month's edition of the Cloud Native Trail Map includes (a slightly older iteration of) the definition: https://github.com/cncf/landscape#trail-map
--
Dan Kohn <dan@...>
Executive Director, Cloud Native Computing Foundation https://www.cncf.io
+1-415-233-1000 https://www.dankohn.com


More Helm Information

Matt Farina
 

In the TOC meeting today there were a number of questions around Helm. I can add a little more context and some links. If there additional questions please feel free to ask.

Helm Inspiration
When it comes to Helms scope it might be useful to look at Debian Apt. Helm is inspired by apt in many ways. For example, anyone can run a repository and you can have more than one of them. This means we can have static repos, open source projects that implement push/pull servers, and proprietary projects (jFrog Artifactory) that can all be registries. Another example is the way it can be used in corporate environments with mirrors, internal projects, and so forth.

While implementation details will vary because of the nature of the platform, the same types of features you can find in apt are found in Helm.

Kubernetes Focus
There were questions around what's owned by the Kubernetes project. Brian can add more context than I can but the short version is that the Kubernetes project is focusing on core Kubernetes rather than projects that sit on top of it or around it. Something like Helm would not be considered to be part of the Kubernetes project if it were a decision today. Numerous things around Kubernetes have been proposed recently and the guidance was to do them in the ecosystem.

Kubernetes, as a project, is attempting to focus on core Kubernetes. It provides a boundary where the project can handle managing itself and not try to manage too many things.

Helm and other package managers
The Kubernetes project doesn't want to bless any one project or way of doing things when it comes to that which is beyond core Kubernetes. This includes package management, developer tools, and so forth. There is a goal to allow and even enable a competitive landscape. This has even lead to asks of moving Helm out of Kubernetes to help Kubernetes be less biased.

Along with that, a platform can have multiple package managers. For example, ubuntu has both apt and snaps. The experience around those can be quite different and that's OK.

When it comes to the numbers, Helm is the package manager people use. Kubepack, the package manager Brian brought up on the call, only showed up once on the Kubernetes Application Survey. When Helm was gaining traction there was KPM competing against it. KPM had a lot of potential and good ideas. Helm gained far more traction and now KPM is no longer maintained.

At the moment there are no other package managers competing with Helm that have traction. That's not to say what will happen but rather an observation of the current state.

Personally, I'm quite OK with competition because, I think, it can push competing projects to be better than if they were left on their own.

Helm and other tools
Helm is focused on the package manager problem. There's a blog post with diagrams to show how it can related to other projects. There are tools built on top of Helm such as Armada, landscaper, and helmfile. Helm isn't trying to expand into these spaces though some people are trying to bend it that way. Instead, the helm team is trying to encourage more of these projects to be used.

Helm v3
Helm v3 is currently under development and you can learn more about it in the proposal for it. Some of the design changes and the philosophy is to provide better interoperability and extension mechanisms. As the community has grown and people want to interact with various other tools we're looking to make that easier.


I'm happy to dig into more of this. You can respond here or reach out to me personally. I'm happy to help fill in any gaps.

Regards,
Matt


--
Matt Farina

Go in Practice - A book of Recipes for the Go programming language.

Code Engineered - A blog on cloud, web, and software development.



TOC Agenda 5/15/2018

Chris Aniszczyk
 

Here's the agenda for tomorrow's TOC meeting:

We will be hearing from the CloudEvents and Helm projects along with some updates from the various CNCF Working Groups. We will also have time to take feedback from the TOC and wider community on how kubecon/cloudnativecon went but feel free to leave that feedback on this list, thanks.

Thanks!

--
Chris Aniszczyk (@cra) | +1-512-961-6719


Re: Updates and next toc call

Brandon Philips <bphilips@...>
 


On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 2:20 AM alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Hi all

Kubecon was excellent.  A few things:

* If you made an announcement, gave a talk or posted a blog about kubecon that is relevant to TOC business (including WGs) please could you publish a link on this thread?  Eg azure cloudevents.

* Quinton is the new TOC representative in the Storage WG.  Many thanks to Ben for getting us to here, and Clint for all his work too.  Also Camille for helping Quinton and the SWG shape next steps.  And: anyone else I missed!

* Let's have a quick round up on all this and other news on the next TOC call.

A






Re: Updates and next toc call

udi@...
 

Cloud 66 announced Formations and Stencils in GA, alongside Copper (open source): https://blog.cloud66.com/press-release/

udi@... | M. +44 7769 235 135
Cloud 66: a complete devops toolchain for containerized apps in production | Twitter Web Blog


On 12 May 2018 at 12:29, Mark Coleman <mark@...> wrote:


Dotmesh announced the Dotmesh Kubernetes Operator: https://dotmesh.com/blog/dotmesh-operator/


On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 10:21 AM alexis richardson <alexis@...> wrote:
Hi all

Kubecon was excellent.  A few things:

* If you made an announcement, gave a talk or posted a blog about kubecon that is relevant to TOC business (including WGs) please could you publish a link on this thread?  Eg azure cloudevents.

* Quinton is the new TOC representative in the Storage WG.  Many thanks to Ben for getting us to here, and Clint for all his work too.  Also Camille for helping Quinton and the SWG shape next steps.  And: anyone else I missed!

* Let's have a quick round up on all this and other news on the next TOC call.

A





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