I am not at all happy with the state of the WG or now TAG that we are in at this moment. I don't feel like we created an environment that is good to work in. I am really concerned and a bit sad that we are at this point now.
A few months ago, Max and I were thinking about how to push the issue of sustainability in our industry, given climate change the most prominent example, which I see as the biggest existential problem of our time. Current software is not green software, a transformation has to happen in our industry too. And we need to understand that we not just build software, the requirements, the supply chain and an entire industry is needed which is built on hardware and other infrastructure things to allow us to create software and execute it.
It makes sense to start with open-source software because it is used everywhere and powers big systems, and like Kubernetes, which can manage huge systems and thus offers huge potential both horizontally (how many use Kubernetes) and in depth (huge systems that are powered by K8s). Max came up with the great idea of CNCF TAG Sustainability, which then became WG Environmental Sustainability a bit later. Max did all the organization and communication up to building the repo. I went back to UNI to get my Master's degree with a focus on green software development and have been delving into the topic bit by bit ever since.
Starting the WG as part of CNCF was something I could never have dreamed of (without sounding cheesy).
With the experience from the Kubernetes community, we were both sure that with great people we would progress quickly as a team and as a community.
Some people are signed up and joined the WG, and I am truly grateful for that and exactly what we wanted, but sadly, we are not a team. The agenda of companies (Red Hat & IBM, Intel) for this WG / TAG is to push key positions (chairs and TL) and projects (Kepler
), while cleverly booting out community heroes like Max. This is not an environment where people can trust each other and work collaboratively as a community.
1. The biggest problem is the communication in the group, which mainly takes place behind closed doors.
2. Active blocking of bootstrapping PRs and discussions.
3. It seems to me that filling chairs and TL is the most important thing – it's not about anything else. It is about strategically filling certain key positions in the community.
4. the goal of environmental sustainability of the CNCF landscape and community is not pursued with everything. We are actively pushing our projects and not acting for the community. Own projects are great, and I am working on one too, but that needs to be separated, the day is not about making a project big.
1. Max has worked hard on the formation of the WG / TAG, stealing his work is unbelievable. We should rename the repo and work with what we have. We even used the TAG Security repo as a template for our repo. There is no reason to create another proposal when the original (a TAG proposal) is only a few months old… (let's work smarter)
2. a couple of people have been proposed as chairs – some of them have never said a word in a WG env-sustainability meeting or worked on an open-source project, which is perfectly fine and great, but not ideal to be the as chair responsible for the TAG team / community. I would recommend including only one of the three people currently recommended, and thus only one from Intel / Red Hat / IBM, as chair – this would prevent from pushing the internal corporate agenda to promote their collaborative project Kepler
3. questioning every line of the Code of Conduct or similar documents when forming a TAG / WG makes no sense at all, it just blocks the process. We should have a basis to agree on and then make proposals directly to the CoCC committee or others. A better starting point for TAGs/WGs needs to be defined – so I would recommend creating a template repository to facilitate the WG/TAG bootstrap process. If no one has time for this, I can take on this task, as I don't want a new WG to have to go through what we are currently experiencing.
4. Do it right or don't do it at all, consider postponing the formation of the TAG or the appointment of the chairs.
I will bring the above points to the next working group/TAG meeting to discuss with everyone. We all need to be honest with ourselves about why we are here and what we want to accomplish.
I'm sad to have to write this message, but the WG / TAG is currently going in a dysfunctional, slightly passive-aggressive direction, and we have to consider how to alleviate that and move in a collaborative direction again. Community is not easy, and I am curious what I have to learn, better influence and build a good environment in half a year or so. I hope that we can still get the group in a position to make a positive contribution to the development of sustainable software in the future at CNCF.
On Jul 27 2022, at 3:42 pm, Marlow Weston <catblade@...
I can appreciate your concerns.
Admin has been given, on both repos, to multiple individuals (just in case). If people have issues with the hackmd, then they are welcome to use the GitHub repo.
Thank you for the links to the other documents. We have tried to include a combo of material from these and used other TAG proposals as guidelines on what to include and will add a credit section at the end.
TAG has a different process than a WG. In order to have a slot at KubeCon, I was told it was best if we submitted by early/mid August. Because there has been prior work, we should be able to leverage that to accelerate a mature proposal quickly. I have reached out to many of the individuals showing up at discussions. It would be very helpful if you would also reach out to any others you (or any others) may see as interested.
Looking forward to your contributions,
On Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 1:13 AM Max Koerbaecher <max@...
I would like to request to put this new proposal in a shared Google Doc. This feels right now not very open and inviting to contribute. Also, you could be busy or your account gets locked and than no one can grant access to the doc. Furthermore, the discussions are hidden as long as the people are not be invited or don't have the right link, strong -1 therefore.
I think there is no need to rush and the proposal should be well crafted. The WG got also announced even so it landed only a week before KubeCon (thanks Dave & Katie!).
Thank you for your efforts putting this document together, looking forward to have an open and vibrant discussion!
On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 00:20:22, Marlow Weston <catblade@...